Aa history Lovers 2004 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page

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From: caseyosh . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2004 2:11:00 AM

research information concerning the original venue and date of the

first time these tapes were used in an instructional format for AA

members. Also, please supply the type format they were first

recorded on. I am assuming they were first compiled on

audiocassette tapes but would like confirmation of that assumption.

Casey O
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Tapes

their experience and knowledge of the Big Book was at an AA Group in

Anadarko, OK. It was recorded on a reel to reel recorder. A taper in Little

Rock learned of its existence and transferred the real to reel on to four

cassettes. I am in possession of a set of that first "The Big Book Comes

Alive" cassettes and they did a great job even back then.

From: Kim . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2004 1:42:00 PM

tell me which parts of the Big Book were influenced by Kitchen

besides the origin of the term "higher power?"
Love,

Kim
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From: Victor . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2004 5:58:00 PM

was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first

publish.
Thank you in advance
Victor F.

Austin, Texas

From: jst4tdy . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2004 6:00:00 PM

The Book "Stools and Bottles" was copywrite 1955 as a companion to "The

little Red Book"(c)1946 which evolved from The Crawford's Men's Training in

Cleveland. There isn't credit given to any one Author in the editions I

have. But they were both Coll-Webb Co. copywrites. Coll-Webb, PO Box 546,

Minneapolis 40, Minnesota. Hope this helps. Bill M.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Victor"

To:

Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:58 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Stools and Bottles
>

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> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I

> publish.

>

> Thank you in advance

> Victor F.

> Austin, Texas

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From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2004 8:18:00 PM

archivesinternational.org...

under portraits and you will see for yourself Barry C. and Ed W. and what

they

display what it is we have found for many of our Pioneers. Put this in your

favorites and let us know also what you think of out site, with suggestions,

comments, requests or whatever. THX! Corey F.

The Book "Stools and Bottles" was copywrite 1955 as a companion to "The

little Red Book"(c)1946 which evolved from The Crawford's Men's Training in

Cleveland. There isn't credit given to any one Author in the editions I

have. But they were both Coll-Webb Co. copywrites. Coll-Webb, PO Box 546,

Minneapolis 40, Minnesota. Hope this helps. Bill M.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Victor"

To:

Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:58 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Stools and Bottles
>

>

> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I

> publish.

>

> Thank you in advance

> Victor F.

> Austin, Texas

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Pagan"

In reply to _sleuthgrrl@yahoo.com_ (mailto:sleuthgrrl@yahoo.com) 's email

dated 12/26/2004--Does anyone here have any excerpts from this book? Could

you please tell me which parts of the Big Book were influenced by Kitchen

besides the origin of the term "higher power?" Love,Kim ----

I have a copy of Victor C. Kitchen's book, "I WAS A PAGAN," Harper &

Brothers, New York and London, 1934. He dedicates it "To The Oxford

Group...that

disciplined army of life changers who helped to give my life new meaning."

For your interest, here is an excerpt from the Chapter IX (titled "This

Business of Living The Other Way Round"). I think it sounds in several

places quite similar to our Big Book.

Harper & Brothers

New York and London

1934
An excerpt from pages 81-87 of CHAPTER IX

"THIS BUSINESS OF LIVING THE OTHER WAY ROUND --

RE-DIRECTION"

living in a world turned upside-down. I now see, however, that it was I who

was

upside-down. In most areas of my life I let myself be guided by a force that

opposite directions nullify each other. That, I think, is why the selfish

indulgence of my desires cancelled out their own satisfaction. That is why

my

self-directed thinking led nowhere, either for myself or others. And, since

my senses and my understanding were continuously dulled by back-pedalling

against God, they were never sharpened to the point of sensitivity needed

for a

sensuous desire, as I tried to explain in my last chapter. He stopped the

flow

of

my mis-directed forces and gave me His force to flow within me unopposed. I

that comes through sharpened senses and a righted under-standing when these

subjects of the human will are subjected to God's will instead, and brought

within the pattern of His plan and within the consciousness of His

affection.

I

did not, however, stop there. The purpose of the Oxford Group is to hold one

to gain cessation of desire and the peace and joy that self-forgetfulness

invariably brings. But the Oxford Group is a Christian body. And Christian

mystics are working mystics. They “seek Godâ€"not joy” and they submerge

themselves in God, not so much for the happiness that results as for the

usefulness. They contact God in order to implant His purpose in and transmit

His power

to the lives of others and thus, individual by individual, to bring about

regeneration of the world.
I could not, therefore, stop with the mere cessation of my old desires, nor

linger to bask in the new peace and joy thus gained. Identification with the

Oxford Group meant my acceptance of the new desire Christ wanted to plant in

place of the old. And it meant taking up the new direction He gave to my

life when I permitted His force to flow unopposed.
I became most definitely conscious of this new direction one night as I was

praying some six months after my change. I realized that my prayer had been

little but wishful thinkingâ€"that I had prayed God chiefly to bring about

the

God to take over my prayer and guide it, so that I might pray for what He

wanted to bring about and so that He might use me for that purpose instead

of

my

flowing through me. At first, while I was praying for the things I wanted,

this force seemed to gather within me. It generated from the wish of my

being

and

over, however, that flow definitely stopped. And then it started in the

opposite direction. It was as though an idea generated outside of me had

been

wish

my being. I was not only changed, but completely turned around.

now put actively and creatively to work for God. And while, with my first

surrender, my life had been greatly altered, this new surrender completed

the

my

old ways. I took up a re-directed path, not only in the physical or sensuous

areas of life.

pull of my desire for a sensual indulgence. I would boorishly, for instance,

refuse to give or to go out for an evening party unless I saw there some

chance to excite my senses through conquests at bridge, to dull my senses

through the conquest of more alcohol than others could drink, or to gratify

my

senses through flirting with some lady who was not my wife. To-day I give

because

has told me to do so. And He tells me to give or go to a party because, at

that party, He has some definite and creative work for me to do.
It may beâ€"much as in the old daysâ€"that He guides me to a party simply

because He knows I need the rest or relaxation I will find there. I am

seldom,

however, as tired as in the old days. More often, I believe, God guides me

a party to show my old crowd that giving one’s life to God does not make

one

queer. It is to show them that working, “guided” Christians do not

down-in-the-mouth cranks, but that they actually outlive, outlaugh and

outlove the pagans. Again (and this seems usually the case) God may guide me

to a

need. He knows that my experience and victories in Christ will help them. He

guides me when to speak and whom to speak to, and thus uses me to win

another

it, I can assure you that going to a party to make a “conquest” for

Christ

is far more exciting, satisfying and gratifying than any of my old attempts

make a conquest of my own.

that my wife used to have to drag me to if I consented to go at all.

Following god’s guidance is by no means a drearily submissive form of

obedience.

It is something you can always do willingly and gladly. God, in fact, has

never called upon me to do anything without giving me the power, courage,

words,

wisdom, money, love, patience, foresight, stimulation, or whatever else I

never faced unpleasant things without a hip flask to see me through, God

never

calls me to a difficult or boring task without giving me new spirit to take

place of that flask and to do a 1,000 per cent better job.

extended not only throughout my sensual life, but into my social and

intellectual

life as well. It enters into all of my thinking and into all of my dealings

with other people. When, for instance, I only thought about Godâ€"when He

existed only in my mind as a beliefâ€"I could reach Him only as an

intellectual

conclusion. I concluded that there must be some Higher Power to account for

all

the things taking place in space much as scientists concluded that there

be an atom to account for all the things taking place in physics. Knowing

Him only as a conclusion, however, I could only conclude what He wanted me

to

do in my relations with other people. And since these conclusions took place

but that something should be done about other people to make the world a

more

comfortable background for my personal exploits, and to remove the various

decided, among many other changes obviously needed, that I would “ring her

up

to

my intellectual level” in order that she might form an intelligent and

“long

aloudâ€"waded

through the fourth volume of a history of civilization. I decided to abandon

the attempt and contented myself in later years with merely pointing out her

faults.
She should, I told her, check her tongue a bit. She should speak less

sharply to the children. She should prove less diligent in inventing

tiresome

errands for me. She should look with greater tolerance on my drinking

companions and with less interest on social affairs. She should spend less

money on

playing the radio simultaneously while I was giving the world the benefit of

my

great wisdom and trying to write. Everything, I was sure, would turn out

better if she would correct these erroneous ways. And everything would have

been much betterâ€"for my ego. Nothing, however, would have happened in the

world I was so nobly trying to help. And nothing would have happened in my

wife.
Here, I think, has been my most conspicuous redirection. I see now the

utter futility of trying to reform the other fellow without starting to

reform

myself. I see the utter uselessness of trying to work out systems which

solve the world’s economic and social problems if I myself am of such a

nature that no systemâ€"other than self-satisfactionâ€"could work out for

me.
I therefore no longer tell my wife to check her tongue. I, as God directs

and empowers me, check my own. And when I find myself, not my wife, speaking

sharply to the children, I realize that it is because some element of

selfishness is not yet dead within me and that I have further surrenders to

make.

preoccupied to seek guidance in the matter with her. Or too utterly lazy to

sit

down

As for drinking companions, I no longer happen to drink while, as for

society, we both have learned to think of people’s worth rather than to

think

much they are worth, and to move in circles where God has use for us rather

than with the people we think we can use.
* * * * * * * * * * *

The Table of Contents list the following chapters:

I. THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS: PAGANISM

II. THIS BUSINESS OF THINKING THINGS OUT: PHILOSOPHY

III. THIS BUSINESS OF MEANING WELL AND DOING BADLY: MORALS

IV. THIS BUSINESS OF "MAKING CHARACTER": SCIENCE

V. THIS BUSINESS OF THE SUPERNATURAL: METAPHYSICS

VI. THIS BUSINESS OF THE OXFORD GROUP: APPLICATION

VII. THIS BUSINESS OF BEING REBORN IN LIFE: TRANSFORMATION

VIII. THIS BUSINESS OF GETTING NEW BEARINGS: ORIENTATION

IX. THIS BUSINESS LF LIVING THE OTHER WAY ROUND: RE-DIRECTION

X. THIS BUSINESS OF STARTING IN SCHOOL AGAIN: EDUCATION

XI. THIS BUSINESS OF BEING REMARRIED: WEDLOCK

XII. THIS BUSINESS OF MAKING A LIVING: ECONOMICS

XIII. THIS BUSINESS OF "NEW DEALS": POLITICS

XIV. THIS BUSINESS OF REMAKING THE WORLD: SOCIOLOGY

XV. THIS BUSINESS OF GOING TO CHURCH: RELIGION

XVI. THIS BUSINESS OF BEING OF USE TO PEOPLE: CREATIVENESS

XVII. THIS BUSINESS OF GETTING AHEAD IN LIFE: GROWTH

XVIII. THIS BUSINESS OF GETTING BACK TO GOD: DESTINY

material, please help. thanks

From: mhaydenbiko . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2004 10:51:00 PM
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Hi,
I am trying to source an elusive audiotape of Father Martins talk on

the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism". Kelly Productions which

supplies AA related audio tapes has a version but it is not the

version I'm looking for and I'm trying to find other sources?

Martin material. I know another version exists, it starts with the

Zebra and Rhino's playing football (he uses that story in the Kelly

Production version but this particular audiotape begins with that

Zebra/Rhino story) (It's also before Ashley was built or opened, he

refers to what Ashley will be like one day). It's a great tape and

I've been looking all over the place for info.
Please ask around and be as creative as possible to

help source this material. It is a live audience talk on

the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism" (1 hour plus) and I've been

searching for it everywhere. thanks

responded like I had three heads, I need some experienced assistance

here. thanks)
M. Hayden

973.452.9727

mhayden@opcenter.net
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++++Message 2116. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Trying to source hard to find

material, please help. thanks

From: William Cox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2004 6:44:00 PM
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Try this link http://www.sobrietytalks.com/Father%20Joseph%20Martin.htm
mhaydenbiko wrote:

Hi,
I am trying to source an elusive audiotape of Father Martins talk on

the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism". Kelly Productions which

supplies AA related audio tapes has a version but it is not the

version I'm looking for and I'm trying to find other sources?
Kelly Productions told me they know of no other resources for Father

Martin material. I know another version exists, it starts with the

Zebra and Rhino's playing football (he uses that story in the Kelly

Production version but this particular audiotape begins with that

Zebra/Rhino story) (It's also before Ashley was built or opened, he

refers to what Ashley will be like one day). It's a great tape and

I've been looking all over the place for info.
Please ask around and be as creative as possible to

help source this material. It is a live audience talk on

the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism" (1 hour plus) and I've been