Q: Was he ever drunk giving satsang? MD

Mike Donner

In March, 2001, Mike posted a letter he’d written to Maharaji in 1987 on the ex-premie forum. In the series of questions and answers which followed, he confirmed much of what Mike Dettmers had told us'.

This is a letter that I wrote to m in 1987. I copied it to about 50 others at the time, ex-instructors, then current instructors, mainly my circle of 'friends and those I wanted to influence at the time. so...fyi

Dec. 19, 1987

Dear Maharaji,

This is a hard letter to write. We have 'shared' so much over the many years together. I have been faithful to you and 'your' work through many ups and downs. I imagine that you will take what is written here as a betrayal, as I have seen you react that way so many times in the past with others. In taking this that way, however, you will miss what I am saying and what is in my heart.

I do not write as a devotee. There was a time when that is all that I wanted and tried to be. I see now that devotion to another human being is destructive to me and to you. I write instead as a simple human to another with a deep and growing experience of life, due in part to the practice of meditation and the opportunities that the work of spreading knowledge has provided me. That part of me that was a devotee needed a guru and you were it. I see now that that codependent relationship is unhealthy and it is time to move from that to some more mature relationship, if that is possible.

As things have changed and evolved over these past 15 years, I've seen you try to deal with some of the CONTRADICTIONS as they became more obvious. Yet, these contradictions (go inside and know yourself/trust only in me, etc) continue and you, who can do something about it, choose not to. Hence, I am no longer able to continue in 'service to you'.

You speak of feeling valuable and capable yet the set up of serving you, not doing this work TOGETHER makes that impossible...implicitly impossible. You want me (us) to do it 'for you', at 'your command'. I guess you mean then 'valuable and capable' within the context of knowing my place, staying in my place at your feet, not at your side.

You view Knowledge as if it were yours. Ownership of a technology so to speak. You assume the sole responsibility of spreading Knowledge as if you owned it. You have often spoke to us about 'your work', 'your mission'; never us, ours etc. Mutual respect has been lacking from the beginning. I use to accept that as my calling (good fortune even) to be a devotee.

This type of relationship makes feeling 'valuable and capable' impossible.

For a while it seemed that you were moving away from these attitudes but I see that, fundamentally, you are not. This is a very heavy load for you to carry. You say that you do not want us to put you on a pedestal but you yourself will not come down from it. I have at times seen your dedication to spreading Knowledge but you seem dependent upon some role that was given to you when you were very young... and inappropriately given no doubt. This role, the roles we have both played.. the matching book ends of devotee/guru is not healthy for you and the world does not need another personality cult, no matter how benevolent.

These must seem like strong words, especially when filtered through the old view of devotee/master. I have wanted many many times to have an honest and open conversation but fear has always stopped me. That has been part my own lack of courage, but you have created a system of fear that has kept us all in box for far too long. I am still feeling fear as I write this, but mostly fear that you will simply blow this off and discount the love that we once shared.

Recently, when we shock hands at your birthday party, it was quite significant for me. I came around a corner and there you were. I had not seen you for some time, and when our eyes met I felt joy and I know you did too. spontaneously, I offered you my hand (married and living in Oregon, that is what we do first with old dear friends... perhaps before an embrace). You took it but it was the 'cold fish' hand shake and you immediately proceeded to joke about it... 'gotta wash my hand now...what if everyone wanted to shake my hand', etc. I was hurt and disappointed because my simple spontaneous gesture could not be accepted and reciprocated (I was not accepted).

Upon reflection, I should not have been surprised. Such a reaction I have seen countless times and it flows from who you see yourself as and how you perceive others in relationship to that view. I stongly believe that perceptions such as that must change if you ever hope to be successful in actually spreading Knowledge to more then a few... really to only those 'devotees' looking for a place for their devotion.

Even now, I hope that perhaps one day you might want to know why so many of us (caring, intelligent, dynamic people) have chosen recently to leave. Could be fun even, a working retreat... brainstorming together to identify the blocks that exist within ourselves that are keeping us from doing this important work TOGETHER.

More personally, I hope you can find a way to get healthy and to respect your bodily temple.

In at least memory of love,

Michael Donner

Maybe we can call you 'Salty Mike', so we don't get you confused with the other guy, 'Cerebral Mike'...

Thanks for taking the questions.
Some of these have been asked of Mike Dettmers, but I think it is valuable to continue to ask them of others, to see if their experiences were the same, or if they have anything else to add...
Here's a few for starters...

1) Drinking:
Did you say that Maharaji was drinking EVERY DAY, from 1972 on?
Was he drinking regularly from the age of about 14 or 15 on?
Did you see him drinking at the Millenium Festival, as Sophia Collier reported in Soul Rush?

When you say he has a drinking problem, can you be specific?

I have the same questions about drug use.

Did any of the PAMS ever talk about how strange and hypocritical M's off stage behavior seemed, in contrast to his stern,and at times 'fire and brimstone' presence on stage?

Ashram premies, for the most part, would have been appalled to learn of these things at that time. Was it hard to keep the secret?(not judging you, just wondering how I could have done it...guess it was AGYA, and kind of clandestine fun in a way..)

For instance, there used to be this story about someone (I think it was John Miller) who was driving M around the hills of Malibu. M said: drive off the cliff, and he did. They drove off the cliff in Malibu, and landed in an alleyway in NYC.(M said he could turn the universe around for a premie if he only believed) Ever hear that one? Did you ever witness anything resembling miraculous or spiritual powers around him?

Even after the family split, he did continue to 'cast a spell' for years over many smart, talented and well intentioned people.

I'm just curious for your opinion.

It's for that reason I'm asking these questions.

Thanks, La-ex

1. drinking? my personal experience is that m has been drinking since i began in denver in 1973...told then by bob mishler that he was drinking daily...that is daily...since he arrived in america.

2. at the millenium program? yes, in houston at the residence he drank daily. i never saw him in all the years drink at any program until after he spoke...then always after. michael Dettmers might know otherwise and i would believe him.

2. drinking problem? you be the judge...my experience was that his whole schedule was set up...covertly around his drinking time.

3. drug use? i witnesed m smoking pot beginning 1973 (my witnessing began then). how often...not sure really, lots more then i saw i know for sure. most likely often weekly during most of the time i was around (1984...then i left and got married, returned as part time instructor til 87 and saw little during those years except it was the same when i was around sometimes as an x-rated premie til 1987).
i personally doubt that m ever tried acid or stronger then hash drugs. not his style to be that out of control. anyways, i have no personal knowledge of anything except pot and hashish nor did i ever hear of more between 1973-87.
hashish was added to a yogart drink at holi festivals, at all holi festivals, india, n. america, spain etc. part of the indian tradition as i was told. very strong. somethimes just pot was ground up with the drink...both were referred to as bong i think.
i never saw m give satsang while stoned.
most often my experience with m and pot was (always) at the residence, late in the evening, maybe 20 x-rated staff around the living room...m would start a large joint, maybe two...to his own lips making it of course more special to us!) he would have as much as he wanted and then pass it to marolyn (usually) and from there to the rest of us til it was gone.
he would play music for awhile and go upstairs to bedroom after 30-60 minutes. we would mill araound and begin to clean up the house and kitchen til quite late on most of those occasions.
for me, this was maybe 2-3 times a month. i found it generally part of what was so boring. Dettmers expressed somewhere on epo that he enjoyed the music...more then me i guess...i prefer to engage with those around me when smoking, laugh and connect with others...none of that ever happened...silence, some whispering perhaps, fairly loud music, some folks sleeping from fatigue until m said goodnite.
( i really liked the community aspect of the k/service experience and that was not the vib around the residence...all single pointed focus of course...very boring)

4. did PAMs ever talk about how strange and hypocritical...?

5. was it hard to keep the x-rated secrets? yes and no. there were those who i did speak with about it, close friends (which i remember m trying to break me from). i guess having a few that i could speak to was enough to 'take the edge off' the potential conflicts.

6. was m having affairs since 1977 as mark a. suggested? i really don't know, but it seems like if he were i might have known about it and did not. monica lewis came on the scene in what? 1982? and seemed to be the first to me...or whatever that was about. honestly not even sure personally about that affair and what it was really about.

7/ did i procure women for m? i arranged to have a premie woman at decca to be standing in the 'right place at the right time' at m's request...to 'check he out'. he had me arrange on follow up to that 'darshan' with a meeting at the residence with her, daytime and in the dining room, meeting lasted 15 minutes, not sexual then...and i 'saw' m with her twice after that ..and not sure what or how far that went.

the only other situation was speaking with one resident premie who had sex with m and was devastated afterwards when m would not communicate with her, avoided her etc. the sexual experience was not very satisfying for her...and worse was the avoidence afterwards.

the other names that mark mentioned i do not know about nor have i heard about...grace m i personally doubt, but...
one point here to understand clearly...there were lots of women who would have loved to have sex with m. who shared their fantasies with him via letters, conversations, actions, innuendo etc. he had no shortage of willing companions...but when the power is so imbalanced, even willing takes on significance. of course, all the hindu stories of masters and mistresses go way back and told and retold.

8. have any of those women spoken up? i guess not really.

9. hit and run i was not aware of that story but believe dettmers about it. sounds like the m that i knew, sounds like the willingness of prouty and others around m that i remember.

10. jagdeo...strangely i never heard of this trip. since reading this forum i have been told of another situation on the east coast in the 70's. i do not feel at liberty to discuss this but will continue to encourage those involved to speak out. i very reliable story to add to the mix.
as i have mentioned elsewhere, m always had the back door channels that he would use...usually the residence staff or those few like randy prouty who were in and out and conduits of info and tasks..leaving those of us on the more 'official side' in the dark. his style of secrecy and divide and conquer.

11/ challenging m? calling him on his immorality? no, i never did except once to wonder (cautiously) about his responsibility towards the instructors he was letting go of so callously. there was a presumption that he was above any standards of course...doubts of that = mind= disloyalty=grounds to be put outside the circle etc.

12. did i witness any mircles? no, never. i did see lots of wonderful, talented people working hard together...often inspite of m's disorganization and secrcy and blaming, do great things together. lots of that seemed miraculous to me then and now.

13. my personal relationship with m? cannot really say that i had a personal relationship with him...certainly not the kind that was warm, friendly, conversational, sharing mutual stories, questions, doubts. in retrospect, the feelings that he care about me were based upon the cosmology at the time...all that he did for me...like keep me hanging around endless in a waiting mode because i was the active type...he did for my own good out of his love for me. that he had some special, personal plan for my life to help me become a 'better person' (read better devotee). this is the mantra i chanted most of the time that both provided a context to explain all the uncomfotable feeling i was having as well as provide a foundational understanding of some personal relationship.

14. what about the future...what is the best thing that could happen now? something between the ex s and m?

bye for now...what do you think la ex.?

Darshan for Sale

Major Donors Conference - Darshan For Sale

Big Money - Big Joke

I'd been drip feeding money by direct debit to Elan Vital Australia, a non profit organization that works for Prem Rawat, a religious cult leader, for many years - a monthly sum averaging about $80 Australian, with occasional bigger sums when a heartfelt plea came round from EV management for more funds along the lines of - 'we desperately need money, because (awed hushed tone) the Boss (Rawat) says so'.

I really thought Amaroo, or Ivorys Rock Conference Centre, near Brisbane, Australia, a centre funded by the premies (followers) in Rawat's name, and the target of my donations, was going to be a facility to promote world peace. This was to be the place where people who had a sincere heart, could come and practise the gift of inner knowledge, connection with the infinite, the true prayer, the true way to spread peace on this planet.

At least this is what Prem Rawat, also known as Guru Maharaj Ji, also known as Maharaji, had been preaching for many years, and I had been listening.

When I first heard him, my reaction was that he was a fake, a charlatan, but after repeated urgings from various musicians of my acquaintance that he was the real thing, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, and believe that his message was true.

At the time, 1976, in Melbourne Australia it was being propagated that the Lord, incarnate on the planet as Guru Maharaj J, had come to save the world, by giving this gift of perfect Knowledge, a way to connect with universal love and the divine, to anyone who asked for it, for free. And this in fact was what I heard him say himself, on tape and in person, at public speaking events.

Let's face it, it was a great line as sales pitches go in the God business, and I fell for it hook, line and sinker.

I was finally shown the four techniques in 1984, and diligently practiced them for 18 odd years. I did experience peace and bliss and harmony, and still do, though I no longer practise the techniques. And so I should have, as they are quite a high form of Yoga, practiced widely in India, although Rawat claims he is the sole custodian appointed by divine succession, as he claims on a former version of the website www.maharaji.org, viewable on the internet archives.

But another message came to me via his premie followers, and that was I should be infinitely grateful to the person who showed me the techniques, and that it was my deepest privilege to show my thanks in any way I could, to help this very very special person to stop the insanity and madness that exists on this planet, by exercising his divinity.

I had seen over the years how money donated to charities was more often than not misappropriated, and had been so pleased that I could channel spare cash into something that really did work, and that was guaranteed 100% to go to making this world a better place to live ……. or so I thought.

And I could show my appreciation in a tangible way. I could give money to help him do his work around the planet, and give more people this gift. When enough people had this gift, when critical mass had been reached, surely then there would be world peace.

Hence the direct debits to the bank account.

I was not happy with many practices I saw at Amaroo, the Australian land parcel that had been transformed into Prem Rawat's international conference centre by mainly volunteer labour, such as exploitation of workers, insensitive building practices and lack of accountability, and made a number of attempts to ascertain whether my money was being misused by followers of Maharaji, as he was then known.

I could not believe that the living incarnation of the universal principle of love was misguided. His will was obviously being subverted by less conscious individuals who ran the place for him. After all, they were either volunteers or badly paid, because this was all that could be afforded, in the need to stretch the money a long way amongst many worthy projects, so no wonder there seemed to be a marked lack of professionalism about the place, almost as though it were a typical badly managed small business with illegitimate labour practices.

In this way, I suspended disbelief for a number of years.

My father once taught me a rule of business - never gamble more than you can afford to lose.

The stakes got higher when, out of the blue, I received a call about a year ago, from an Elan Vital finance coordinator, asking me did I want to have a very special opportunity to be close to the Master. That he wanted more cash to spread his Knowledge further, faster and better. And that a team of people from round the world were going to have the privilege to attend a private conference with Him. The minimum donation required was USD $5,000. A very small price for attendance with the greatest CEO (sic) on earth.

I thought about it and realized I could just and barely afford to lose about half this sum. The dot.com bust and subsequent tech wreck was affecting my income, but how could I refuse a plea from the Teacher to whom I owed an eternal debt of gratitude for the gift of the Knowledge of all Knowledges?

So I offered half. It was accepted, as long as I guaranteed the other half with my credit card details.

I suppose I was to a small degree flattered to be asked. But really I thought this was my opportunity to really get close enough to find some answers. Was my money to be well spent, how did the chain of command work? Was there some way I could get the message across that Amaroo was not, in my opinion, working as a centre for world peace because it was being badly managed as a despotic small business instead of an well-oiled international corporation accountable to its shareholders. Would I at last be able to tell someone that nepotism and cronyism were rife?

The event was to be held at Amaroo, an hour's drive from my home in Queensland.

Then at the last minute there was a change of venue to the Scottsdale Fairmont Resort, Phoenix Arizona.

I still felt committed, so I booked a return ticket to the US, a long journey from Australia, about 20 hours with 14 hours flying time. And reasonably expensive.

I'm not impressed by money, wealth and resorts. I've grown up in a very beautiful resort town with pristine beaches and white sand, rainforest and tropical gardens.

I had arrived a day early at the Princess Fairmont Scottsdale resort. It was an oasis in the middle of the Arizona desert, ancestral lands of the Navajo people, who arrived in the area from the northern regions of the Americas somewhere between 1000AD and 1500AD. The landscape is stark and sculpturesque, as dramatic outcrops push up out of the sparsely vegetated desert plain.

The hotel is a veritable oasis in the desert, well appointed and with some interesting neo-hacienda style architecture.

The Elan Vital convention participants started to arrive in drips and drabs, as I watched from my sequestered spot under a shady tree by the rock pool shaped swimming lagoon.

By that evening, there were about four hundred people ($5,000.00 USD x 400= $2,000,000.00 USD) who turned up to attend this special event for major donors. The idea being sold was that giving money was a team effort too, and this was to be a conference for money givers to get a chance to team up.

On the evening before the event started, all these people were mingling and socializing in a convention foyer in a way that I am personally never comfortable with. The 'who do you know' session, a chance to see and be seen, to impress with dress, catch up with old friends, make new contacts. After a few turns it was apparent that I knew very few people, and wasn't about to meet any more.

Starting the next morning, there came was a few stage managed conference sessions, over two and a half days, where we were captive audience to a person renowned in the cult for his service of soliciting money, Yoram Weiss.

He and Prem Rawat gave some rather embarrassing presentations from the point of view of contemporary good corporate practice. That is, statistics with no real context, graphs with little explanation or definition, and a relentless hard sell message, that we were here on sufferance really, as someone had to provide the money.

It was barely a week from the tragedy of September 11th, so Prem Rawat played the role of divine comforter, noting that there were always going to be tragedies.

To an outsider, the Americans at the conference seemed very naive about the horrifying tragedy, and were looking for answers as though there were an explanation for the ignorance and stupidity of the war mongering that is all too prevalent on this planet. And of course Rawat was perceived as having answers to September 11th.

Meanwhile there was no mention of an agenda for the participants, it was as usual, a one way communication, from Rawat to his audience.

At dinner, I was surprised by the number of my dining companions who expressed an intent on revenge for the awful twin towers tragedy. This was supposed to be a conference of people focused on inner peace and inner knowledge. Didn't they know that violence begets violence? And that it is all too easy for a retaliatory action to perpetuate as splinters of violence for centuries to come?

I told the story at dinner of the East Timorese people who had to decide what to do to the traitors in their midst who had hacked their own people to death with machetes at the behest of the Indonesian military. They decided to forgive them, and attempt reconciliation, as the only practical way to advance out of a past fraught with such a depth of despair, sorrow, torture and deprivation. It didn't cut much ice.

Over the life of the conference, which comprised sessions by Yoram Weiss on how much money was needed and which program it was needed in, expression sessions by Rawat, with vague allusions to money making activities and the importance of his work, a question session where the stern Master could chide the questioner or the benevolent master could bask in the embarrassingly sickly gratitude of the gushy devotee, there were two really interesting events.

Firstly, the foot kissing ritual, where the devotee goes through security checks and has the opportunity to surrender their will to that of their Master, meanwhile showing practical gratitude in the form of gifts of money laid at the 'Lotus Feet', a sectarian Hindu religious practice, surely a little of out of place in the 21st century Western society.

Secondly, during the conference there was a very strange session. It purported to be a training session to build the money team.

No input was requested from team members. No formal method was applied to form into teams.

However, an exercise was set by some person who was called a team trainer, for team building, everyone was asked to gather themselves in functional units to carry out some simple task.

Now I don't like group activities, so I just sat and watched. The people at the event were so efficient that within a couple of minutes, they had formed themselves into coherent teams and were well on the way to completing their tasks.

But then subsequently, there was a session where they were told by Rawat that they were complete failures, and that they were hopeless and they just were totally terrible at the training.

What? I'd seen excellent responses with my own eyes!

But what happened next was even more puzzling in terms of the well ordered and organized conferences I am accustomed to attending in my professional capacity as an IT architect.

The money collector proceeded to harangue the audience about the desperate and crying need to give the Boss money, money and more money so he could do his work properly. All in all, this cowed crowd, who had just been told they were abject failures, had a chance to make amends, and pledge money for the next year.

The kinds of sums cited made me feel that the least I could do was to pledge the absolute minimum of $10,000 USD for the next year. And I'm ashamed to say that in all conscience I fell for this hard sell and pledged.

Obviously the event was then over, and everyone could go home, after another lunch of indifferent food served in a marquee, (No Fairmont catering for the likes of us - we breakfasted out in the open courtyard in the hot desert sun that reached 100 by 9am, and ate lunch and dinner in a marquee.)

On reflection, this was much more like a pyramid sales conference than a serious agenda to build a team ready to take up the challenge of funding the propagation of the inner knowledge that held the key to world peace.

It was only a few months later that I spoke to somebody who had seen where the money went at Amaroo. To a sumptuously appointed residence with lavish décor and the latest electronic gadgets and fittings for Prem Rawat. Somebody who had seen it with their own eyes, despite it being a closely guarded secret with a top security rating. They also told me about the dozen empty cognac bottles that they'd cleaned up after Prem Rawat's night of fun with his mistress. Now those behaviours I might be able to rationalize. But the final clincher for me was when my confidant told me about Prem Rawat's very nasty temper tantrums, irrational verbal abuse, and primitive psychological tactics on volunteers if he thought he wasn't getting his own way at Amaroo.

Lord of the universe, as he once claimed? Urbane provider of peaceful meditation techniques, as he now claims? Or complete charlatan and fake?

Dear reader, I'll let you be the judge.

So here is my challenge to Prem Rawat.

I've donated around $30,000 Australian over the years because you told me you and your inner knowledge were going to spread peace in this world. I recently came across a group of young Europeans who are doing a splendid job in working to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa. If you care to contact me through this site, I will give you the name of this charity to write on your refund cheque to me. They are doing something for world peace.

As you, and all your charities and non-profit organizations around the world, with tax exemptions, and your offshore tax haven companies have not, and never will, with your fraudulent use of money given in good faith to promote peace in our time.

I believe it is high time your personal finances were audited to see exactly how these multi millions of US dollars raised annually, are actually spent.

Nya Alison Murray

Who Owns What around Prempal Rawat?

The question is, if Rawat was a fraud, who continued playing the guru after he grew up because he realised he could make a lot of money, he would be behaving exactly like he does. So, if he is genuine, he is deliberately acting like a fraud in order to.... what? ... test his devotees? ... ensure that only the true students will find him?

The fact is, if Rawat was sincere in trying to reach as many people as possible, he would remove all obstacles, especially the appearance that he is obsessed with material possessions. He could also use his wealth to advertise his message, instead of constantly soliciting funds from his followers to pay for every propagation initiative.

The fact is, even when Rawat attends speaking engagements, the emphasis is on ensuring that Rawat, his family, and his mistress, are kept in levels of luxury usually reserved for heads of state, all at the expense of the premies in the area where the event is held.

Fundraising has always been an important activity in Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital. Although 'Knowledge' is free, there is a constant need for cash to maintain expensive properties around the world, and the expensive lifestyle of Maharaji and his family. Expenses, which include a $40 million private jet, two helicopters (a Bell 206L and a Bell 430 worth over $4.5 million), a $7 million yacht, a multi-million dollar home in Malibu, a large house and grounds in Surrey, England, land and a home at the 'Ivorys Rock Conference Centre' in Australia, as well as a 'residence' at "Fig Tree Pocket" (Brisbane suburb) in Queensland, Australia, have been justified by saying they help spread Maharaji's teachings. The ownership of these assets has always been clouded in mystery, but some curious ex-premies have been doing some research.

"You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think."

Maharaji - Long Beach, December 1995

Who owns the Malibu Residence and its Heliport?

In brief: Mary Holle, who is a premie and received knowledge in the 70s, is the president of Seva Corporation (the company that's owning Prempal Rawat and his family's residence). Seva Corp. is the actual owner of various valuable items used by Mr Rawat: his residence in Malibu, a single engine aircraft, at least one of Prem Rawat's helicopters (see also Bell 430) and a glider. All the following information is public and can be accessed via the Internet.

Note: the premies purchase the house for $250,000 in 1974, then Maharaji sold it in 1978 for about $5.8 million to Seva Corp.