Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology
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Dean's smart, he has dreams, but he doesn't dare express them until he's satisfied with Sam's future, and so far, he surely isn't.He also doesn't want to be told point blank that he can't have those dreams, so he denies them by refusing to verbalize them. Remember that telling look he gave Sam at the end of RTE666? Best example of that I can think of.
by snowbunny2003 (Fri Dec 7 2007 16:32:48) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply
oh yea, I forgot about that. I was kinda like, c'mon Dean that's not an answer to his question. lol I really am going to be a tv writer.
by donilou2 (Fri Dec 7 2007 16:53:31) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply The fact that he said nothing was the answer. There was also the time in "Shadow" when Sam asked him directly and he said he wanted them to be a family again. That was the closest he came to saying it, and do you remember how uncomfortable he became in "Salvation" when John said he wanted Dean to have a home? Another direct hit. Other times he's been more vague, such as wanting to visit Amsterdam, or the Grand Canyon, or simply admitting he's tired.All these things scream that he wants "normal" but doesn't dare ask for it because he knows he can't have it, so to avoid making first his father, then Sam feel guilty, he simply doesn't say anything at all or deflects it with a joke. Illegitimati non carborundum Re: Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology (spoilers for past episode by blumoodeanie (Fri Dec 7 2007 16:56:17) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply
by thesnowleopard (Fri Dec 7 2007 22:47:41) Edit Reply Oh, my. This thread got lively again, of a sudden. No complaints here. Yeah, I was saying on another thread that Dean is actually quite bright, certainly as bright as Sam. In Scarecrow, he's the one who figures out that he's up against a pagan fertility god with a very sensible analysis about the timing of the disappearances, the local pattern of immigration into the area and the people who disappeared. In WIAWSNB, his curiosity is what helps him break free of the djinn's acid trip. Even in the beginning, both before the attack and early in the dream, he wants to know more about the djinn's abilities, long before he realizes that they're sinister. Sam, meanwhile, just wants to hunt the djinn down and kill it. And yes, Dean seems to love the idea of travel. He's the one who always mentions places he'd like to visit, just because he's never been to them. Ironically, he seems more intellectually curious than Sam, though that perhaps isn't such a surprise. Sam went into a "sensible" profession that was the total opposite of the life of petty larceny and outlawry in which he was raised. A legal career makes sense, considering his rebellion against John, and it certainly helped him learn his research skills, but it doesn't automatically mean that he's an intellectual explorer. Sam's focus in hunting is always much sharper and narrower than Dean's, which may explain why Dean seems to be better at finding new cases in odd or unlikely places. It's poignant that the really curious one of the two brothers seems to have dropped out of school at sixteen and never gone back. As far as Dean trying to be like Mary, let me take that thought one step further and say that it was probably John who put that idea in Dean's head, or at least fostered it. Seems kinda odd, I know, for a macho guy like Dean to take on a maternal role, but gender roles are a lot more fluid in real life (especially between cultures) than the "Women From Venus/Men from Mars" crowd want us all to believe. The family needed a maternal figure to raise baby Sam and keep everybody from killing each other and once Dean got old enough, he was it. Ironically, I think that the role taught him to be a good leader and mediator, which John clearly wasn't (every time they meet someone John and Dean knew from hunting, that person is mad at John, but often likes Dean). In Asylum, for example, Dean simply takes charge. In fact, it's a point of contention after Sam gets attacked by the crazy doctor ghost. Dean even steps in when John is acting stupid at the end of the season, much to both John and Sam's shock. He also leads Meg's exorcism in Devil's Trap and makes all of the major decisions in it--in fact, he's so filled with barely suppressed rage that it's all Sam and Bobby can do to hold him back. I love the part when she finally 'fesses up. When he continues the exorcism and she protests, "You promised!" he snarls back, "I lied!" Dean doesn't need wings and a thunderbolt to play the avenging angel. It would be interesting to see Kripke explore the boys' dreams and future in season four. Where do they go next once they get to a place where they're not dealing with a crisis-a-minute? http://www.geocities.com/rpcv.geo/other.html Re: Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology (spoilers for past episode by donilou2 (Sat Dec 8 2007 06:45:53) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply
I laughed out loud when he did that- about time a demon got a little of their own back, and exactly what I would have told her too. The family needed a maternal figure to raise baby Sam and keep everybody from killing each other and once Dean got old enough, he was it. I've noticed the odd and endearing mix of maternal instincts and brotherly pranking in Dean right from the beginning, and even it the pilot, when Dean runs out onto the lawn of their burning home, he's reassuring baby Sammy. I don't think John needed to do much fostering. From my experience with my own kids,the desire to care for a sibling is innate. Where do they go next once they get to a place where they're not dealing with a crisis-a-minute? They go to Amsterdam, by boat, to a coffee house where they don't serve coffee. [[biggrin]] Illegitimati non carborundum Re: Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology (spoilers for past episode by thesnowleopard (Sun Dec 9 2007 00:51:18) Edit Reply
I laughed out loud when he did that- about time a demon got a little of their own back, and exactly what I would have told her too. I think the best thing about scenes like that is that the show doesn't take the cheap route a la 24 by trying to tell us that torture is *bad*, but it's okay when the good guys do it. It's not okay when Dean does it either, but you don't always get good choices in life; sometimes you just get a choice between a bad or a worse alternative. We know that Dean is riding the razor's edge and that he's going to pay for it. He knows he's riding the razor's edge and that he's going to pay for it (in fact, he did pay for it in that very same episode). But boy, did she ever deserve it. And I probably would have done exactly the same thing in his place. I've noticed the odd and endearing mix of maternal instincts and brotherly pranking in Dean right from the beginning, and even it the pilot, when Dean runs out onto the lawn of their burning home, he's reassuring baby Sammy. I don't think John needed to do much fostering. From my experience with my own kids,the desire to care for a sibling is innate.
That is true. Some people are just born protective and generous and self-effacing. The challenge of a parent is to help that child learn how to set boundaries and not get abused. Unfortunately, John went in the opposite direction and reinforced every bad aspect of that kind of personality. So, he ended up with a son who was still a good person (because you could have raised Dean in a whorehouse/speakeasy in the ninth circle of Hell and he probably would have still turned out a good guy), but one with absolutely no self-worth whatsoever. They go to Amsterdam, by boat, to a coffee house where they don't serve coffee. ROTFL! Well, he could get that in Vancouver just as easily (would be funny if they actually set an episode in Vancouver). Dean would love Barcelona, too. That place is a 24-hour party. Don't think I could live there because, I swear, Barcelonans *never* sleep (except maybe during siesta). But it sure is a fun place to visit. http://www.geocities.com/rpcv.geo/other.html
by donilou2 6 days ago (Sun Dec 9 2007 10:25:11) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply
I was actually a little surprised she believed him, but she must have thought he was an honourable man and trusted him. (Stupid demon!)It was really the only choice he could have made, because either way he had to try to save the host- if not her body at least her soul.I was so glad that Meg thanked him for that,relieving him of at least a little of the guilt he must have felt. Well, he could get that in Vancouver just as easily (would be funny if they actually set an episode in Vancouver). True, but Canada does have extradition, so I think Mexico would be the better hideout for them, and it would be easier to get into Mexico (I hope) than Canada. Illegitimati non carborundum
Re: Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology (spoilers for past episode by thesnowleopard 5 days ago (Mon Dec 10 2007 06:05:22) Edit Reply I was actually a little surprised she believed him, but she must have thought he was an honourable man and trusted him. (Stupid demon!)It was really the only choice he could have made, because either way he had to try to save the host- if not her body at least her soul.I was so glad that Meg thanked him for that,relieving him of at least a little of the guilt he must have felt. Yeah, I liked that, too. You could already see him gearing up for yet another guilt trip--and I'm not sure how much she relieved him of it. But at least she went out well. And we got to find out a little about the true Meg as opposed to the demon. An interesting storyline would be for Dean to become involved with a woman who seems lovely, only to find out later that she's a demon. Let's see some demons who are focused on Dean (for whatever reason) instead of Sam, for once, maybe even in an attempt to put him in opposition to Sam. Dean would fight off any such attempt, of course, but it would be interesting to see them try. True, but Canada does have extradition, so I think Mexico would be the better hideout for them, and it would be easier to get into Mexico (I hope) than Canada. Canada's not as hard to get into as you might think, especially if you're not actually trying to come here legally. Mexico is very heavily policed, whereas Canada...a lot less. And there's a lot more wilderness on the Canadian border. They've had smugglers and outlaws crossing back and forth for centuries. Plus, it would be far easier to shoot a Canadian border crossing than a Mexican one. Just go down to Delta and do it. It also occurred to me that Dean won't be going to Amsterdam any time soon (or anywhere else on a plane) unless he takes a whopping dose of Valium first. Humming Metallica won't cut it on a six-hour flight across the Atlantic. http://www.geocities.com/rpcv.geo/other.html Re: Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology (spoilers for past episode by donilou2 5 days ago (Mon Dec 10 2007 06:58:59) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply UPDATED Mon Dec 10 2007 06:59:25 An interesting storyline would be for Dean to become involved with a woman who seems lovely, only to find out later that she's a demon. Let's see some demons who are focused on Dean (for whatever reason) instead of Sam, for once, maybe even in an attempt to put him in opposition to Sam. Dean would fight off any such attempt, of course, but it would be interesting to see them try. Sera Gamble has apparently expressed interest in a storyline like this for Dean- he falls in love with a woman who betrays him, but I'm not sure my heart could stand watching Dean be destroyed this way even if I knew he would ultimately beat her at her own game. I remember how much Cassie hurt him, and I'm not sure I'm ready to go the soap-opera route with him again. I doubt that any woman could effectively drive a wedge between Sam and Dean, especially from Dean's POV. I think Ruby is already trying to do that with Sam, but I don't think it would work with Dean- he's much too suspicious of everyone. Now, if it was someone he already trusted, a previous client or even Ellen, who became possessedthat might be interesting, but I as a viewer would have to know he was one step ahead of her all the way. That's the only way I could know he wasn't getting used and hurt again.
I wonder if Dean realises what a sea voyage would be like? I think he'd need more than valium to make it! Myself, I think I'd rather fly than sail, but thats just me. Illegitimati non carborundum Re: Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology (spoilers for past episode by thesnowleopard 5 days ago (Mon Dec 10 2007 15:21:42) Edit Reply
I think Ruby is already trying to do that with Sam, but I don't think it would work with Dean- he's much too suspicious of everyone. Now, if it was someone he already trusted, a previous client or even Ellen, who became possessedthat might be interesting, but I as a viewer would have to know he was one step ahead of her all the way. That's the only way I could know he wasn't getting used and hurt again.
I absolutely hear what you're saying and I hesitated before I posted the suggestion, especially since, yeah, Ruby is obviously trying to drive a wedge between the two brothers (and Dean will never buy into that). But part of my problem with Ruby is that she's all about Sam and his storyline and what I had in mind would be different. Some spoilers might indicate that she may be more benign, but I guess I'm just not interested in being more charitable. First, I want to say that my biggest problem with Bela from a plot point of view (rather than that her characterization drags down other characters around her) is that she's been attached to Dean like a leech and adds nothing to his storyline. If they did get together, it wouldn't tell me a thing about Dean except that he can't seem to keep it in his pants even when the previous way he's been drawn would indicate that he's smarter than that. What I had more in mind was a character like the demon Dean encountered in Sin City, one that is focused on corrupting *him*, or at least getting him on her side even if she can't corrupt him (because I suspect that the writers have written him as fundamentally incorruptable). And I don't mean seducing and abandoning him. It wouldn't work unless he was aware of it early on and that there was this odd game of cat and mouse between equals where we got her trying to sound out just what his whole demon-defense thing really is and he was trying to sound her out to get information out of her and save Sam from the darkside. What I'm suggesting is that we explore Dean's strengths versus Hell instead always definining them by what his weaknesses aren't. And one of those strengths is that he's really easy-going and good-natured with women, that they also like him a lot in return. As we've already seen with Lust, Dean isn't just resistant to demon charms, he's able to turn the tables to his advantage. He might not avoid getting hurt in such a scenario, but he wouldn't be a passive victim, either. He's not a victim to demons; he's an enigma. Have a little fun with that. AS far as the Canadian border's concerned, I have to agree with you in some respects, but the two crossings I'm familiar with, Windsor/Detroit and Sarnia/PT Huron would not be places the brothers would want to try getting through. I hate going across, so I'm not familiar with any other. Those are *huge* crossings. Really, it's a lot easier to get across in British Columbia (we've got the Rockies, remember). That's why there's so much pot smuggling across the border. They wouldn't do it if it weren't pretty easy. In fact, Intelligence had a whole episode that just about laid out how to do it in detail. I wonder if Dean realises what a sea voyage would be like? I think he'd need more than valium to make it! Myself, I think I'd rather fly than sail, but thats just me. Yeah, I know...a boat across the Atlantic when I could just fly? I don't think so. And it takes a long time. At any rate, I don't think Dean's a sailor type at all and I doubt we'll be seeing him on the water any time soom. http://www.geocities.com/rpcv.geo/other.html
by Ledfoot_rocker 5 days ago (Mon Dec 10 2007 17:18:02) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply Ok, I first want to say that I've been following this thread and it... is... awesome! I love that the fan community of this show can have such in depth discussions about a common love. And that a TV show has enough substance that it can inspire such in depth conversation. That is sadly lacking in televsion these days. So thank you, snow. [[wink]] First, I want to say that my biggest problem with Bela from a plot point of view (rather than that her characterization drags down other characters around her) is that she's been attached to Dean like a leech and adds nothing to his storyline. If they did get together, it wouldn't tell me a thing about Dean except that he can't seem to keep it in his pants even when the previous way he's been drawn would indicate that he's smarter than that. I love this! That is how I've been feeling about Bela all along. She essentially adds nothing to the show, or more specifically to Dean's story line. It seems a bit like wasted space to me. I also wanted to say that I thought your posts regarding Dean's damage as a result of John's abuse were spot on. And I have a question. Have you been keeping up with the thread that is discussing Lisa's (Ben's mom) come back in a future episode? On that thread there is speculation that Ben is actually Dean's son and that Dean will discover the truth and it will be what motivates him to save himself from Hell. I personally don't like the idea of this. It seems a bit too pat to me. I mean, come on! I could write that, and I'm not even remotely close to being a writer. I have no delusions. *L* I hope the writers were a little more creative. Plus, how would that work? What purpose would Ben serve after he pulls Dean from the jaws of Hell? Dean already knows he can't have a normal family life. He knew that even before he made his deal. It may have even been part of the reason he made the deal. What happens with Ben then? It seems to me that he would just turn into more baggage for Dean to feel guilty about. Anyway, I was just wondering what you think about this theory and its plausibility as an answer to Dean's situation? "Query: How does the never to be differ from what never was?" The Road Cormac McCarthy Re: Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology (spoilers for past episode by blumoodeanie 5 days ago (Mon Dec 10 2007 17:20:05) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply
Ain't Karma a bitch? [[jump1]] Re: Cain versus Abel and the show's mythology (spoilers for past episode by donilou2 5 days ago (Mon Dec 10 2007 18:13:34) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply
This would be great if the writers could do it justice, and it would have been a great Dean-centric storyline for this season that I was complaining about wanting up-thread. A season long, high stakes poker game- right up Dean's alley! *Are you really absolutely certain you're not Kripke?* [[laugh]] If you're not, you need to send him this idea right away!
by thesnowleopard 3 days ago (Wed Dec 12 2007 05:42:59) Edit Reply
Ok, I first want to say that I've been following this thread and it... is... awesome! I love that the fan community of this show can have such in depth discussions about a common love. And that a TV show has enough substance that it can inspire such in depth conversation. That is sadly lacking in televsion these days. So thank you, snow. You're welcome! The truth is that every piece of fiction has this kind of stuff behind it, but bad stories are incoherent and don't say anything new about the story. For example, I was watching Jensen's movie, DeVour. It has some good ideas and Jensen does a very good job of showing Jake as a good kid caught up in a horrible situation and going not-so-slowly mad. I could completely see where they got the idea of him playing Sam. If he'd ended up playing Sam, I think we would have seen a far darker portrayal than Jared's and I also think that once they got the idea of casting Jensen as Dean, they transferred several character traits over to Dean, making him a lot more three-dimensional than he otherwise would have been. It also probably would have been a largely one-man-Sam show, with Dean as a sidekick. Jensen is probably rather relieved that Jared came on board to share the work load fifty-fifty. The movie, itself, though, didn't work so well. There was also this idea that troubled young people are more susceptible to the temptations of the Devil (not my favorite idea, as it's quite nasty, morally and metaphysically) and a better one of these kids basically being abandoned to, even sold to, the Devil by the older generation. The idea of the game also had some possibilities. Download 481.94 Kb. Share with your friends:
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