Proceedings of the national assembly


REPATRIATION OF STRUGGLE VETERANS JB MARKS AND MOSES KOTANE



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REPATRIATION OF STRUGGLE VETERANS JB MARKS AND MOSES KOTANE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr J L MAHLANGU (ANC): Hon Speaker, the repatriation of liberation struggle icons, JB Marks and Moses Kotane, confirms the commitment of the ANC to the returning of the remains of all struggle heroes, who died on foreign soil, to their families and the people of South Africa.
These two struggle giants of the ANC and the SACP were buried at Novodevichy Cemetery in Moscow in 1972 and 1978, respectively. A delegation of the Department of Arts and Culture is expected to return soon from Russia where they had gone to collect the remains of the two struggle stalwarts. The delegation departed for Moscow on Wednesday, 11 February 2015, to wrap up a delayed process to repatriate the remains of Marks and Kotane.
The ANC commends the President for declaring a special official funeral, category one, for both Kotane and Marks whose remains were scheduled to return home on 1 March 2015, from Moscow.
During his first visit to Russia in August 2014, President Zuma discussed the repatriation of South African fallen heroes with his counterpart, President Vladimir Putin, and also laid wreaths at the graves of Kotane and Marks in the capital of Russia.
This commitment by our government follows the successful repatriation of the remains of the renowned journalist, Nat Nakasa, from New York last year. Nakasa was reburied at the Heroes Acre in Chesterville in Durban a few months ago. I thank you. [Applause]
DISRUPTIONS OF STATE OF THE NATION AND STATE OF THE PROVINCE ADDRESSES
(Member’s Statement)

Ms P T VAN DAMME (DA): Hon Chairperson, directly after the disruptions during the state of the nation address, Sona, several ANC Cabinet members were apoplectic about the disruptions that took place in this august House.


Most notably, the Minister in the Presidency told the world that the disruptions were disappointing, an embarrassment to the nation and an insult to those who fought for liberation. Yet, barely a few days later, a mere block away from us, ANC members in the Western Cape legislature attempted to disrupt the opening of the provincial Parliament by using the very same tactics that were strongly condemned by the very organisation they belong to.
At one point, Mr Fransman tried his level best to manufacture a Sona-like situation by hilariously claiming that the broadcast feed from the Chamber had been cut. The Speaker had to inform him that this claim was baseless.
The DA congratulates the Speaker of the Western Cape Provincial Parliament, WCPP, for handling the ANC’s disruption in accordance with the Rules and the Constitution. Points of order were calmly and patiently taken from the ANC, and neither a single police officer nor any guns entered the chamber, nor was a single member of the House assaulted.

Herein lie some lessons for our Presiding Officers. Thank you. [Applause.]


GOVERNMENT SPENDS R30 BILLION ON CONSULTANTS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr K Z MORAPELA (EFF): Hon Chairperson, the latest reports that government spent more than R30 billion on consultants in the past financial year is indeed disturbing, to say the least.
This happened despite the commitments and the pronouncements made last year by both Ministers, Pravin Gordhan and Nhlanhla Nene, that allocations for consultants have been kept to a minimum and that measures have been put in place to deal with waste.
Why do we hire consultants at such exorbitant figures when there are people within government departments who are hired to do the same job? If they lack the capacity and skills, why don’t we reskill them through rigorous training and support?
This expenditure is completely unacceptable, unjustifiable and it amounts to a gross misuse of public funds. It is actually criminal to misuse public money in the way that it is happening right now in the Zuma administration.
Many of our people out there do not have access to basic services such as water, electricity and housing, and yet money has been pumped into the pockets of consultants.
We are now suspicious that the utilisation of consultants’ services of this magnitude by the ANC government is a strategy to enrich themselves by allocating such tenders to their friends outside government, and in some instances, comrades who are in government but doing business with government. Thank you. [Time expired.]
ANC WELCOMES RULING BY PRESS OMBUDSMAN
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M U KALAKO (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC welcomes the ruling of the Press Ombudsman to dismiss the frivolous and baseless complaint laid by the DA against two journalists, Karima Brown and Vukani Mde recently.
This follows the complaint by the DA that the two prominent journalists of Independent Newspapers attended the 103rd birthday celebrations of the ANC on 10 January 2015, in the ANC’s attire, saying that this compromised their independency and impartiality.
The ANC agrees fully with the ombudsman that there is nothing wrong when a journalist in his or her private or personal capacity attends a rally as long as they do not violate the press code of conduct by such acts as taking bribes or engaging in conflicts of interest. Neither Karima nor Vukani Mde wrote about the ANC rally for their publications.
As usual, the DA has gone on a fishing expedition wanting to demonise anything and anyone who shows support for the ANC. We once again want to remind the DA that freedom of speech means that everyone in this country is at liberty to hold and share their own views on any matter. It does not mean that it is only voices that are anti-ANC that should be heard. I thank you. [Applause].
LOAD SHEDDING CRIPPLING SOUTH AFRICAN ECONOMY
(Member’s Statement)

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN (IFP): Hon Chair, South Africa has been crippled by the ongoing load-shedding. In addition, we have written a report showing that 28,2% of electricity purchased and distributed to Johannesburg citizens has been lost through theft and the illegal practice of meter-tampering.


In monetary terms, these losses amount to over R2 billion, and these are cost prices, which means that a loss through distribution is much higher — and this is only one metro.
Multiply this nationally and we have a serious and silly electrical supply-side problem in addition to load shedding. The main culprit is not only Eskom’s incompetence, but also municipal incompetence, ineptitude and corruption.
Given this supply-side chaos and its serious and negative effects on the economy and the people, we want to know when is the Minister going to fully deregulate and unbundle the electricity supply-side industry? I thank you.
R30 BILLION SPENT ON CONSULTANTS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M S MABIKA (NFP): Chairperson, this weekend’s City Press Report reveals that in excess of R30 billion was spent on consultants by national and provincial government departments during the past financial year.
This astronomical amount is a fifth of last year’s entire health budget and six times what was spent on environmental protection, and more than enough to cover the entire Gauteng e-toll project which motorists are now paying for.
This expenditure has taken place despite announcements by former and current Finance Ministers that cost-containing instructions were issued to combat wasteful expenditure, which included curtailing the budget for consultants while allocations for consultants’ services have been curbed.
The figures, however, show that this Treasury directive has had little or no effect on the continued expenses incurred through employing the services of consultants. The only notable and commendable reductions is seen in the national Department of Human Settlement, where the expenditure has dropped from R102 million in the 2012-13 financial year to R42 million in the past financial year.
As the NFP, we express our concern and dismay at this continued wasteful expenditure. We call for a full disclosure by all departments as to the reasons why Public Service activities have been outsourced, why the departments lack the expertise to perform these activities and duties themselves and who these consultants are. Thank you.
HOME AFFAIRS ISSUES MORE THAN 1 MILLION SMART IDENTITY CARDS
(Member‘s Statement)
Mr B A NESI (ANC): As part of laying the foundation for the National Development Plan, NDP, the Department of Home Affairs has issued over one million smart ID cards to South Africans in less than a year.
This is one more example of the ANC-led government’s commitment to changing our citizen’s lives for the better and continuing to deliver to improve the quality of life particularly for the poor and marginalised.
It is because of this turn-around strategy that the ANC remains convinced that the department’s commitment to reach the target of 1,6 million smart cards by the end of the 2014-15 financial year is achievable and remains on track.
The department is really making good progress with replacing its outdated systems with new and secure technologies. Of the 403 Home Affairs offices, 110 are equipped with the necessary system for processing smart ID cards and new passports. The department plans to increase this to 140 offices by March 2015.
The new ID card and passport have strong security features, which significantly reduce the chances of fraud. The new system has also improved the delivery time for issuing IDs. Prior to this, it used to take 54 days for an applicant to get an ID book, now it takes less than 10 days.
The ANC supports the department’s commitment to ensuring that over 38 million citizens with green ID books convert to the smart ID cards by the time this process concludes. Thank you.
CABINET’S STATEMENT ON CONDUCT DURING STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS IN CONFLICT WITH DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION OF POWERS
(Member’s Statement)
Ms D CARTER (Cope): Cope notes that following the Cabinet meeting held on 18 February, a statement including the following comment was issued:
Cabinet condemns the unruly and unparliamentary conduct of some Members of Parliament during the opening of Parliament.
It is disappointing that these elected public representatives chose to dishonour the sacrifices and struggle made to realise our hard-earned democracy.
This statement is worrying and it points to a blurring of the lines between Parliament and the executive. It points to a serious deficit in the doctrine of separation of powers. Parliament elects the President who in turn appoints his executive.
It is Parliament which scrutinises and oversees the executive, not the executive which scrutinises and oversees Parliament. John Locke warned us when he noted, and I quote:
It may be too great a temptation to human frailty, apt to grasp at power, for the same persons, who have the power of making laws, to have also in their hands the power to execute them, whereby they may exempt themselves from obedience to the laws they make, and suit the law, both in its making, and execution, to their own private advantage ...
Thank you.
SUCCESSFUL 103RD ANNIVERSARY CELEBRATION
(Member’s Statement)
Mr F ADAMS (ANC): The ANC hosted a successful celebratory event befitting a 103-year-old organisation and the biggest liberation movement on the continent.
The ANC would like to acknowledge the role played by all levels of the organisation, our leagues and alliance structures that touched every corner of this province in communicating the importance of this historic event while mobilising our people to attend.
The role played by the religious leaders, civil society organisations, diplomatic corps, business fraternity and other invited guests will always be remembered.
The ANC would also like to congratulate the Cape Minstrels on their unprecedented association with the organisation, against the backdrop of the failed endeavour by the DA-led City of Cape Town to raise conflict between the ANC and the minstrels in their attempts to sabotage the ANC event.
The Minstrels in their traditional, colourful and organised formations added colour to our celebration and reaffirmed a shared history between the ANC and the struggles of the slaves during the period of oppression. We were humbled by their readiness to postpone their scheduled event as a show of support for the ANC`s anniversary celebrations. Thank you.
DEMAND FOR FULL-SCALE INVESTIGATION INTO INVOLVEMENT OF STATE SECURITY AGENCY IN STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr D J MAYNIER (DA): Chairperson, the Minister of State Security is in damage-control mode following not only the signalgate scandal but now the spycable scandal. The Minister is implementing a standard operating procedure when it comes to dealing with scandals, which is the rogue official defence where officials are blamed and then made to walk the plank.

Now the Minister wants us to believe that the signal-jamming device, which was only capable of disrupting the signal in this Chamber, was in place to counter threats from a low-flying aircraft or unmanned aerial vehicle. The fact is, nobody believes the Minister, and that is why we need a full-scale investigation into signalgate. However, the real story is that the State Security Agency should not have been involved in the state of the nation address at all.


The threat to disrupt Parliament was not a threat to national security; it was not a hostile act of foreign intervention; it was not terrorism; it was not espionage; it was not an exposure of state security matters; it was not an exposure of state secrets; it was not sabotage; and it was not serious violence and therefore fell outside the mandate of the State Security Agency.
So, in the end, we need to send the Minister a clear message and that message is, “Get the spooks out of domestic politics in South Africa.”
PUBLIC DEMONSTRATIONS IN MALAMULELE CALLED OFF
(Member‘s Statement)

Mr G S Radebe (ANC): The ANC applauds the progressive decision by the people of Malamulele to call off the public demonstrations, which shut down the businesses and services in Malamulele and the surrounding areas, in the best interests of all the affected parties.


This breakthrough is as a result of the rigorous and continuous engagements between the ANC, its structures, its government and the Malamulele task team, as well as the recent establishment of a service delivery audit team in Malamulele.
This effort, however, will give an opportunity to the residents’ task team, who organised the protest, to meet Pravin Gordhan, the Minister of Co-operative Governance, in August when government looks into the new reconfiguration of the municipalities.
The ANC has heard the concerns of the people of Malamulele, and through its government will engage with the people of Malamulele to advance their concerns, address their challenges and ensure an outcome of a local municipality that understands the fundamentals of serving communities.
I-ANC iqhubekela phambili. [The ANC is moving forward.]

DEMARCATION BOARD TO RECONSIDER MATATIELE DEMARCATION ISSUE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr L M NTSHAYISA (AIC): Chairperson, I’ve got only two issues to present. The first issue is well-known by hon Jackson Mthembu.
As the AIC, we would like to urge the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, hon Pravin Gordhan, that as he instructed the Municipal Demarcation Board to redetermine some municipalities in the Eastern Cape, and while his department is still waiting for, or rather, withholding the results of the referendum conducted in Matatiele - [Laughter.] - by the former Minister, the late hon Sicelo Shiceka, the people of Matatiele are still waiting.
Now, I would not like to speak in the language that was spoken by the people of Khutsong and Malamulele. We, therefore, urge the Minister to instruct the Municipal Demarcation Board to reconsider the Matatiele demarcation issue.
The second issue is that the people of Matatiele would like to request the Minister of Health to allow the patients of Taylor Bequest Hospital in Matatiele to be transferred to nearer and more accessible hospitals in KwaZulu-Natal. That is because the Nelson Mandela Hospital in Mthatha has limited space. [Time expired.]
HOTEL SCHOOL AND CONVENTION CENTRE OPENS IN TAUNG, NORTH WEST
(Member’s Statement)
Mr A M MUDAU (ANC): Chairperson, as the ANC, we view the official opening of the Taung Hotel School and Convention Centre in North West province as a step in the right direction in terms of changing the socioeconomic status of the people of Taung, especially women and the youth.
The institution will be known as Pedagon, and will focus on the skills and competencies that are required to grow the tourism economy of North West in line with the objectives of the National Development Plan, NDP, which identifies tourism as one of the key growth sectors of the South African economy.
This institution will operate in full swing from the beginning of March this year, 2015. Thus far, it has already registered 30 students for this academic year. Learners at the school will be offered practical courses in professional cooking, food and beverages and accommodation service for this academic year.
Soon to be introduced, will be additional courses such as the Higher Education Programme in Tourism and Hospitality Management. This institution hopes to be an anchor of the economic development for the Taung region, with the capacity to create additional employment opportunities, as well as boosting local business.
Chairperson, this shows that the ANC is moving forward. [Time expired.]
MINISTER OF POLICE UNABLE TO CURB FARM MURDERS
(Member’s Statement)
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD (DA): There were 277 attacks on farmers and farming communities last year, with 67 murders — the highest figure since 1990.
The Minister of Police has shown scant interest in the people who feed our nation other than making a vague comment on 8 August 2014, after a farmer, Ponty Thuynsma, was attacked and his body burnt on his farm in the east of Pretoria where another farmer had been murdered a month previously.
He said he would really look into ways of improving rural safety and policing. He said the South African Police Service, SAPS, will roll out another rural-safety strategy, as the previous strategies had failed dismally. We have been waiting for this new improved version for months. It will be tabled tomorrow, but this already speaks to lack of resources at rural police stations.
Minister, four days ago, a 72-year-old farmer and his 70-year-old wife, Toon and Rienie Swanepoel, were attacked on their farm near Bloemfontein. Three men tied them to a single bed and proceeded to take turns to rape Rienie while her husband was forced to watch.
He tried to fight back and they shot him in the leg. They then shot Toon dead, made Rienie lie on his body and then killed her too.
Our farmers and farm workers are being tortured to death. They are four times more likely to be murdered than the average South African, and it is far more dangerous to be a farmer than a police officer.
The number of commercial farmers has declined by over 50% since 1996. The farm statistics are quietly removed from the annual release of statistics in the hope that we won’t notice how many farm murders there are.
Now the question is: Who will be feeding South Africa in a decade when this Minister is still fiddling with this latest version of his strategy? [Time expired.] [Applause.]
ANC VICTORIOUS IN FOUR BY-ELECTIONS
(Member’s Statement)
Ms H H MALGAS (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC continues to consolidate its support by winning all four by-elections that took place on Wednesday, 4 February 2015. These by-elections took place in Amahlathi, in the Eastern Cape; Nala, in the Freestate; and Swellendam and Witzenberg, in the Western Cape.
Most significant in these by-elections, was the winning of a ward from the DA in Witzenberg by a marked margin. [Applause.] This has shown that it is becoming clear to South Africans that the DA has no commitment to serving the people and communities in the Western Cape, but rather uses them, as evidenced by them taking black children out of schools to run campaigns.
The ANC thanks communities in the four wards, who, through their votes, have shown confidence in the ANC’s agenda of service, transformation and commitment to work with our people to build better communities.
The ANC remains the only hope for our people to improve their lives and make South Africa a better place to live in. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, on a Point of Order: The previous statement’s facts were incorrect. The ward in Witzenberg was an ANC ward and not the DA’s ward. I just wanted to set the record straight. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M G Boroto): But you know that you don’t have to do that in here.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Chairperson, just on that point in terms of setting precedence: On what point of order was the hon member rising?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M G Boroto): No, I think I’ve addressed him, hon member.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: But you allowed him. I would urge that it is not seen by members as precedence. Thank you.
REPATRIATION OF STRUGGLE VETERANS JB MARKS AND MOSES KOTANE
HOTEL SCHOOL CONVENTION CENTRE OPENS IN TAUNG, NORTH WEST
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION: Thank you very much, Chair. I just briefly want to respond to two member’s statements, namely those of the hon Mahlangu. I want to say that indeed the late Moses Kotane and J B Marks were giants of our liberation struggle.
Kotane was the General Secretary of the Communist Party of South Africa, SACP, from 1939 to 1978 and at his death he was also the National Treasurer of the ANC. He was also instrumental in building the relationship between the ANC and the then Soviet Union. Both Comrade Mandela and Sisulu acknowledged Kotane as their political mentor.
JB Marks led the African Mine Workers Union and was chairperson of the SACP. He led the great 1946 African Mine Workers Union strike which, amongst other things, led to the ANC Youth League’s radical programme of action and the ANC-led mass struggles of the 1950s.
We also wish to quickly say to hon Mudau that, indeed, the opening of the school in the North West for training tourism shows that government continues with its commitment to expand postschool education and training to reach out to the youth and adults who wish to acquire further education and skills. Siyaqhuba. [We continue.] Thank you, Chairperson.
DEMAND FOR FULL-SCALE INVESTIGATION INTO INVOLVEMENT OF STATE SECURITY AGENCY IN STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS
CABINET’S STATEMENT ON CONDUCT DURING STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS IN CONFLICT WITH DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION OF POWERS
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H Jeffrey): To respond firstly to hon Maynier, as he is well aware that section 11 of the Powers Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon Ndlozi!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order, Chair: I just want to check if the Deputy Minister is allowed to speak even when the Minister is around? Is that what the Rules state? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can I tell you that any relevant Minister, Deputy Minister or any other Minister can respond on behalf of another Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H Jeffrey): Thank you, Chair. I mean to say, as the hon Ndlozi knows, that is not a rule, but the Minister is currently not here anyway. However, on the issue of section 11 ... [Interjections.] ... the hon Maynier knows ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Members, order! You had your chance so allow the Deputy Minister to respond, hon Maynier. Continue, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H Jeffrey): The hon Maynier knows that section 11, read with the definition of security services, provides for the defence force, the police and the intelligence services, which would include the State Security Agency ... [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order: Rule 105(7), here read with subsection 105(6) – under Statements by members - it says, and I quote:
(7) In the absence of a Minister who may respond to a statement as envisaged in Subrule (6), the relevant Deputy Minister or any other Minister must be given an opportunity to respond on behalf of the absent Minister
[Interjections.]
AN HON MEMBER: The Minister is here! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... no, no, wait! Can you take your seat, hon Minister.
Hon members, I read it out to you and said that the Minister or the Deputy Minister may respond to the statement. [Interjections.] Listen! I am still talking, please give me a hearing.
As the Presiding Officer here, if the Minister delegates his duties to the Deputy Minister, I can’t stop them. And I am going to allow the Deputy Minister ... [Interjections.] Hon Minister, please sit down unless you are responding and taking your delegated time. Let me listen to you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I was not here when the statement was made. How do I respond to a statement that I did not hear because I was not here? [Interjections.] That is why the Deputy Minister is acting perfectly within the Rules, because he was the one who was here when I was away. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay. Thank you. Hon members. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, can we address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please do not do things that are contrary to the Rules of the NA. That is the main reason why this House is having lots of challenges. They emanate from the rulings of the Presiding Officers.
The Rule is very clear here. Let us read it slowly for you so that you can understand it properly. [Interjections.] It says “In the absence of the Minister”. [Interjections.] The Minister is here, why is the Deputy Minister speaking when the Minister is here? He is undermining him. [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I have read that.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We cannot allow people to undermine Ministers. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Don’t continue, hon member. I heard you correctly and you showed me on which Rule you were rising. There it is – it says so, “In the absence of the Minister ... ”.
However, I am saying that I am allowing this delegation of duty. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But it is not there in the Rules; the delegation is not in the Rules. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We will deal with that.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is not in the rules that the Minister can delegate the Deputy Minister. It says in the Minister’s absence he speaks. [Interjections.] If the Minister is here he must keep quiet and sit down. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shivambu, please don’t talk back to me. I have ruled on this matter.
HON MEMBERS: No! [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No! [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Don’t talk back to me. Are you saying I shouldn’t allow him? I have allowed him. [Interjections.] Because I am sitting here.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Wait! Because I am sitting here you can take your seat. [Interjections.] I am still speaking. I am watching this House and I know why I make certain deviations, and the deviation that I made was exactly on the basis that was raised by the hon Minister. Hon Steenhuisen?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Allow me to help you, perhaps Madam House Chair. Neither the hon Jeffrey nor the hon Masutha are the relevant Ministers in this case. If one looks at the statement read by the hon Maynier it was directed to the Minister of State Security who quickly scampered out of the House in case he had to be accountable. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, you are out of order. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am not out of order. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): You are out of order hon member! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Will you sit down and let me address you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, allow me to finish, please. [Interjections.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The relevant Minister is the Minister of State Security. If he is not here the relevant one is the Deputy Minister, and the Deputy Minister of State Security is not here. Hon Masutha is maybe being given the opportunity to respond because he is a Minister. The hon Jeffery is not a Minister, he is not a member of Cabinet, but he is a Deputy Minister.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): On the relevancy of the question, as to who should answer it, I never heard the hon Maynier saying that the question should be answered by the Minister of State Security. [Interjections.]


Okay, let me talk. I am still talking. [Interjections.] If that is the case — and maybe I missed it — there was nothing wrong in hon Jeffery responding. But if you specifically ... [Interjections.] Wait, hon members! How are you going to hear me out? If you specifically asked for the Minister of State Security, because she was here, let me pass and allow them to settle it so that we can go on to the next response. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H Jeffery): Chair, can I respond to another question which is not on this one? [Interjections.]
HON MEMBER: No, no!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There is a point of order. When I have ruled ... [Interjections.] Is it on the same matter?
AN HON MEMBER: The Deputy Minister is here! [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Can I address you, hon Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue, hon Ndlozi.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, you must assist us all because these Rules — marah aaah! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] You know, Chairperson, here in the Cabinet ... [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hee—eh, hee-eh, hon Ndlozi!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, I want that ruling to be clear so that we all understand the ruling properly. You know, these Rules 6 and 7, they would not have been written separately if the provision for an absent Minister was not important, in terms of how we should read it. So, it says a Minister who is present must respond. Then it makes a provision for when that Minister is not present, because if a Minister speaks here ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I think you have made your point.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: This guy is not a member of the Cabinet.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, no, don’t continue.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: He is not a member of the Cabinet. [Interjections.] He is responding to questions and it’s a ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi ... [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: He is undermining the Minister, and it is important for us to rise and defend the national ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, it is okay. I heard you and have ruled on the matter. And I asked — and I am not going to repeat what I said — that the hon Maynier asked specifically the Minister of State Security; that is why I allowed him to speak. But now, I still have three sports for the ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H Jeffery): Chairperson, can I respond to the hon Carter’s matter? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Jeffery, I still have three spots left, and I will allow you now to respond.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H Jeffery): Thank you, Chairperson. It was the hon Carter’s statement which was on a constitutional matter, which I think I can respond to.
She seemed to be complaining about the fact that because Cabinet issues a statement complaining about Parliament that that is a violation of the separation of powers. I am not quite sure where she got that idea from, but cannot Cabinet express a view on Parliament?
To the hon Ndlozi, this is a constitutional matter, the Minister is out of the House and therefore, I can speak. [Interjections.] It is also interesting to note ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please give hon Jeffery a chance.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H Jeffery): It was interesting to note, when I was responding to a DA statement, how the EFF defended them. Thank you.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, may I address you, please? Can we put it on record that the hon Minister, a black Minister, ran out in order for his white Deputy Minister to respond. We would like to put that on record. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you please remove the racist reference ... [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Because we view it as a matter of a national question. [Interjections.] He ran out – gone!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, can you please remove the racial naming of it. [Interjections.] I am not going to put it on record. Listen to me. Listen to me, hon members! You cannot come here ... [Interjections.]
No, hon member, I am speaking. You cannot come here and start that racial labelling by saying the hon black Minister allowed the hon white Minister to do this or that. I am not going to allow that. So, I take it as no point of order. [Interjections.] It’s no point of order!
Ms M T KUBAYI: On a point of order, House Chair. I think it does not have to end there. The hon Ndlozi must be made to withdraw the unconstitutional remark that he has made. [Interjections.] He is a Member of Parliament and has taken an oath in terms of the Constitution and the laws of this country. He must withdraw the unconstitutional remark that he has made. [Interjections.] It can’t be left unchallenged.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, please, please. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, I am still addressing hon ... [Interjections.] No, no, no, I must address him ... [Interjections.] because it was ... [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: But Chair, we must ... [Interjections.] ... we can’t be harassed by ... [Interjections.] ... and the next thing you want to change it ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, wait! You don’t know what I am going to say. Why are you standing? Sit down. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: You have taken a decision so why do you want to change it now because you have been given advice from somewhere else?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No! I am not changing any decision. Why do you ... [Interjections.] hon Shivambu, please wait to be recognised. I was going to address the hon Ndlozi and the hon member who is asking for a withdrawal, I think I said that was not a point of order. Having said that I understand where you are coming from. Can we follow the other structures of saying what you wanted to say because I have already ruled on the issue. [Interjections.] I don’t need your assistance, hon members I told you long before that I don’t need any assistance.
Is there any other Ministerial response? Hon members, that concludes the Ministers’ responses. Thank you very much.

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