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> Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2108. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie Big Book Study Tapes From: caseyosh . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2004 2:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can a member of this group provide me with authentic documented research information concerning the original venue and date of the first time these tapes were used in an instructional format for AA members. Also, please supply the type format they were first recorded on. I am assuming they were first compiled on audiocassette tapes but would like confirmation of that assumption. Thanks, Casey O
++++Message 2109. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie Big Book Study Tapes
From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2004 1:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to Joe McQ. & Charlie P., the first recording of them sharing their experience and knowledge of the Big Book was at an AA Group in Anadarko, OK. It was recorded on a reel to reel recorder. A taper in Little Rock learned of its existence and transferred the real to reel on to four cassettes. I am in possession of a set of that first "The Big Book Comes Alive" cassettes and they did a great job even back then. Cliff Bishop - The Primary Purpose Group - Dallas, TX IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2110. . . . . . . . . . . . Victor C. Kitchen''s "I Was A Pagan" From: Kim . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2004 1:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone here have any excerpts from this book? Could you please tell me which parts of the Big Book were influenced by Kitchen besides the origin of the term "higher power?"
Kim
++++Message 2111. . . . . . . . . . . . Stools and Bottles From: Victor . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2004 5:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first publish.
Austin, Texas IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stools and Bottles From: jst4tdy . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/25/2004 6:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Victor, The Book "Stools and Bottles" was copywrite 1955 as a companion to "The little Red Book"(c)1946 which evolved from The Crawford's Men's Training in Cleveland. There isn't credit given to any one Author in the editions I have. But they were both Coll-Webb Co. copywrites. Coll-Webb, PO Box 546, Minneapolis 40, Minnesota. Hope this helps. Bill M. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor" To: Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Stools and Bottles
> > I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I > was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first > publish. > > Thank you in advance > > Victor F. > Austin, Texas > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
++++Message 2113. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stools and Bottles From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2004 8:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI. This is Corey. Look at our new webite at.... archivesinternational.org... under portraits and you will see for yourself Barry C. and Ed W. and what they
and did and were as we move ahead with our website . We will be factually display what it is we have found for many of our Pioneers. Put this in your favorites and let us know also what you think of out site, with suggestions, comments, requests or whatever. THX! Corey F. Hi Victor, The Book "Stools and Bottles" was copywrite 1955 as a companion to "The little Red Book"(c)1946 which evolved from The Crawford's Men's Training in Cleveland. There isn't credit given to any one Author in the editions I have. But they were both Coll-Webb Co. copywrites. Coll-Webb, PO Box 546, Minneapolis 40, Minnesota. Hope this helps. Bill M. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor" To: Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Stools and Bottles
> > I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I > was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first > publish. > > Thank you in advance > > Victor F. > Austin, Texas > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
--------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2114. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Victor C. Kitchen''s "I Was A Pagan"
From: spokann24@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2004 6:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Merry Christmas, In reply to _sleuthgrrl@yahoo.com_ (mailto:sleuthgrrl@yahoo.com) 's email dated 12/26/2004--Does anyone here have any excerpts from this book? Could you please tell me which parts of the Big Book were influenced by Kitchen besides the origin of the term "higher power?" Love,Kim ---- I have a copy of Victor C. Kitchen's book, "I WAS A PAGAN," Harper & Brothers, New York and London, 1934. He dedicates it "To The Oxford Group...that disciplined army of life changers who helped to give my life new meaning." For your interest, here is an excerpt from the Chapter IX (titled "This Business of Living The Other Way Round"). I think it sounds in several places quite similar to our Big Book. “I WAS A PAGAN,†by V. C. KITCHEN Harper & Brothers New York and London 1934
"THIS BUSINESS OF LIVING THE OTHER WAY ROUND -- RE-DIRECTION" In the post-War days of dizzy peaks and dizzier slumps I decided I was living in a world turned upside-down. I now see, however, that it was I who was upside-down. In most areas of my life I let myself be guided by a force that was pulling in the very opposite direction from God. Forces working in opposite directions nullify each other. That, I think, is why the selfish indulgence of my desires cancelled out their own satisfaction. That is why my self-directed thinking led nowhere, either for myself or others. And, since both my senses and my understanding were continuously dulled by back-pedalling against God, they were never sharpened to the point of sensitivity needed for a
spiritual experience. God handled these blocks in the physical area of my life by removing sensuous desire, as I tried to explain in my last chapter. He stopped the flow of
thus found the peace that comes when conflict ceases. And I found the joy that comes through sharpened senses and a righted under-standing when these subjects of the human will are subjected to God's will instead, and brought within the pattern of His plan and within the consciousness of His affection. I did not, however, stop there. The purpose of the Oxford Group is to hold one always to the highest, and they did not let me hesitate half-way. The Oriental mystic, for example, is content to submerge himself in God just to gain cessation of desire and the peace and joy that self-forgetfulness invariably brings. But the Oxford Group is a Christian body. And Christian mystics are working mystics. They “seek Godâ€"not joy†and they submerge themselves in God, not so much for the happiness that results as for the usefulness. They contact God in order to implant His purpose in and transmit His power to the lives of others and thus, individual by individual, to bring about regeneration of the world.
linger to bask in the new peace and joy thus gained. Identification with the Oxford Group meant my acceptance of the new desire Christ wanted to plant in place of the old. And it meant taking up the new direction He gave to my life when I permitted His force to flow unopposed.
praying some six months after my change. I realized that my prayer had been little but wishful thinkingâ€"that I had prayed God chiefly to bring about the
things I wanted, in the way I wanted them to come. I then and there asked God to take over my prayer and guide it, so that I might pray for what He wanted to bring about and so that He might use me for that purpose instead of my trying to use Him. At that moment I became distinctly conscious of a force flowing through me. At first, while I was praying for the things I wanted, this force seemed to gather within me. It generated from the wish of my being
and flowed upward and outward as though I were broadcasting my wish to God and
asking Him to do something about it. The moment that I asked Him to take over, however, that flow definitely stopped. And then it started in the opposite direction. It was as though an idea generated outside of me had been
broadcast from space, entering my mind and flowing downward to become the wish
of my being. I was not only changed, but completely turned around. Before this, in other words, I had been passively obedient to god. I was now put actively and creatively to work for God. And while, with my first surrender, my life had been greatly altered, this new surrender completed the
reversal and started me in a direction which lay absolutely opposite to all my old ways. I took up a re-directed path, not only in the physical or sensuous environment, but in all the social-intellectual and spiritual-volitional areas of life. In the physical area, as already suggested, I used to be guided only by the pull of my desire for a sensual indulgence. I would boorishly, for instance, refuse to give or to go out for an evening party unless I saw there some chance to excite my senses through conquests at bridge, to dull my senses through the conquest of more alcohol than others could drink, or to gratify my senses through flirting with some lady who was not my wife. To-day I give parties or go to them, not because I hope for sensual excitement, but because
God has told me to do so. And He tells me to give or go to a party because, at that party, He has some definite and creative work for me to do.
because He knows I need the rest or relaxation I will find there. I am seldom, however, as tired as in the old days. More often, I believe, God guides me to a party to show my old crowd that giving one’s life to God does not make one queer. It is to show them that working, “guided†Christians do not become down-in-the-mouth cranks, but that they actually outlive, outlaugh and outlove the pagans. Again (and this seems usually the case) God may guide me to a
party because He knows some man or woman will be there who is in spiritual need. He knows that my experience and victories in Christ will help them. He guides me when to speak and whom to speak to, and thus uses me to win another
person to His kingdom. Stupid as this may seem to those who have not tired it, I can assure you that going to a party to make a “conquest†for Christ is far more exciting, satisfying and gratifying than any of my old attempts to make a conquest of my own. I can even, these days, put on my dinner coat and go with a smile to parties that my wife used to have to drag me to if I consented to go at all. Following god’s guidance is by no means a drearily submissive form of obedience. It is something you can always do willingly and gladly. God, in fact, has never called upon me to do anything without giving me the power, courage, words, wisdom, money, love, patience, foresight, stimulation, or whatever else I might need to accomplish the desired result. Just as in my “B.C.†days I never faced unpleasant things without a hip flask to see me through, God never calls me to a difficult or boring task without giving me new spirit to take the place of that flask and to do a 1,000 per cent better job. This re-direction of old desires and substitution for old stimuli has extended not only throughout my sensual life, but into my social and intellectual life as well. It enters into all of my thinking and into all of my dealings with other people. When, for instance, I only thought about Godâ€"when He existed only in my mind as a beliefâ€"I could reach Him only as an intellectual conclusion. I concluded that there must be some Higher Power to account for all the things taking place in space much as scientists concluded that there must be an atom to account for all the things taking place in physics. Knowing Him only as a conclusion, however, I could only conclude what He wanted me to do in my relations with other people. And since these conclusions took place entirely in my own mind, I usually concluded that I was just about perfect, but that something should be done about other people to make the world a more comfortable background for my personal exploits, and to remove the various obstructionists who disturbed the even tenor of my ways. Even before I was married I had decided to “reform†my future wife. I decided, among many other changes obviously needed, that I would “ring her up to
complementary foil to my philosophical discourses during the (anticipated) “long
winter evenings.†Once, however, she fell asleep as Iâ€"reading aloudâ€"waded through the fourth volume of a history of civilization. I decided to abandon the attempt and contented myself in later years with merely pointing out her faults.
sharply to the children. She should prove less diligent in inventing tiresome errands for me. She should look with greater tolerance on my drinking companions and with less interest on social affairs. She should spend less money on
practically everything and keep the children from pounding the piano and playing the radio simultaneously while I was giving the world the benefit of my great wisdom and trying to write. Everything, I was sure, would turn out much better if she would correct these erroneous ways. And everything would have been much betterâ€"for my ego. Nothing, however, would have happened in the world I was so nobly trying to help. And nothing would have happened in my wife.
utter futility of trying to reform the other fellow without starting to reform myself. I see the utter uselessness of trying to work out systems which would solve the world’s economic and social problems if I myself am of such a nature that no systemâ€"other than self-satisfactionâ€"could work out for me.
and empowers me, check my own. And when I find myself, not my wife, speaking sharply to the children, I realize that it is because some element of selfishness is not yet dead within me and that I have further surrenders to make.
When I see her spending too much money I realize that I have been too preoccupied to seek guidance in the matter with her. Or too utterly lazy to sit down
with her and work out the budget by which God wants us to expend His funds. As for drinking companions, I no longer happen to drink while, as for society, we both have learned to think of people’s worth rather than to think
how much they are worth, and to move in circles where God has use for us rather than with the people we think we can use.
The Table of Contents list the following chapters: I. THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS: PAGANISM II. THIS BUSINESS OF THINKING THINGS OUT: PHILOSOPHY III. THIS BUSINESS OF MEANING WELL AND DOING BADLY: MORALS IV. THIS BUSINESS OF "MAKING CHARACTER": SCIENCE V. THIS BUSINESS OF THE SUPERNATURAL: METAPHYSICS VI. THIS BUSINESS OF THE OXFORD GROUP: APPLICATION VII. THIS BUSINESS OF BEING REBORN IN LIFE: TRANSFORMATION VIII. THIS BUSINESS OF GETTING NEW BEARINGS: ORIENTATION IX. THIS BUSINESS LF LIVING THE OTHER WAY ROUND: RE-DIRECTION X. THIS BUSINESS OF STARTING IN SCHOOL AGAIN: EDUCATION XI. THIS BUSINESS OF BEING REMARRIED: WEDLOCK XII. THIS BUSINESS OF MAKING A LIVING: ECONOMICS XIII. THIS BUSINESS OF "NEW DEALS": POLITICS XIV. THIS BUSINESS OF REMAKING THE WORLD: SOCIOLOGY XV. THIS BUSINESS OF GOING TO CHURCH: RELIGION XVI. THIS BUSINESS OF BEING OF USE TO PEOPLE: CREATIVENESS XVII. THIS BUSINESS OF GETTING AHEAD IN LIFE: GROWTH XVIII. THIS BUSINESS OF GETTING BACK TO GOD: DESTINY [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2115. . . . . . . . . . . . Trying to source hard to find material, please help. thanks From: mhaydenbiko . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2004 10:51:00 PM
the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism". Kelly Productions which supplies AA related audio tapes has a version but it is not the version I'm looking for and I'm trying to find other sources? Kelly Productions told me they know of no other resources for Father Martin material. I know another version exists, it starts with the Zebra and Rhino's playing football (he uses that story in the Kelly Production version but this particular audiotape begins with that Zebra/Rhino story) (It's also before Ashley was built or opened, he refers to what Ashley will be like one day). It's a great tape and I've been looking all over the place for info.
help source this material. It is a live audience talk on the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism" (1 hour plus) and I've been searching for it everywhere. thanks P.S. (I tried mentioning it through a few chat rooms and people responded like I had three heads, I need some experienced assistance here. thanks)
973.452.9727 mhayden@opcenter.net
material, please help. thanks From: William Cox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2004 6:44:00 PM
Hi,
the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism". Kelly Productions which supplies AA related audio tapes has a version but it is not the version I'm looking for and I'm trying to find other sources?
Martin material. I know another version exists, it starts with the Zebra and Rhino's playing football (he uses that story in the Kelly Production version but this particular audiotape begins with that Zebra/Rhino story) (It's also before Ashley was built or opened, he refers to what Ashley will be like one day). It's a great tape and I've been looking all over the place for info.
help source this material. It is a live audience talk on the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism" (1 hour plus) and I've been searching for it everywhere. thanks P.S. (I tried mentioning it through a few chat rooms and people responded like I had three heads, I need some experienced assistance here. thanks)
973.452.9727 mhayden@opcenter.net
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2004 7:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Folks, I suspect that this was a talk Father Martin gave somewhere at an anniversary or other AA affair. Have you tried Dicobe tapes out in Nebraska? They have 50,000 talks in their library and must certainly have something by Father Martin. Their toll-free is 1-800-999-3381. Mel Barger Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Cox" Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trying to source hard to find material, please help. thanks Try this link http://www.sobrietytalks.com/Father%20Joseph%20Martin.htm mhaydenbiko Hi,
Kelly Productions told me they know of no other resources for Father Martin material. I know another version exists, it starts with the Zebra and Rhino's playing football (he uses that story in the Kelly Production version but this particular audiotape begins with that Zebra/Rhino story) (It's also before Ashley was built or opened, he refers to what Ashley will be like one day). It's a great tape and I've been looking all over the place for info. Please ask around and be as creative as possible to help source this material. It is a live audience talk on the "Spiritual Aspects of Alcoholism" (1 hour plus) and I've been searching for it everywhere. thanks P.S. (I tried mentioning it through a few chat rooms and people responded like I had three heads, I need some experienced assistance here. thanks) M. Hayden 973.452.9727 mhayden@opcenter.net
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