Aa history Lovers 2004 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2042. . . . . . . . . . . . Error in Pamphlet F-107, Special needs From: Cherie'' Pulliam . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2004 1:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello everyone, Cherie' here, alcoholic and grateful member of AA. There is an error in one of the pamphlets from NY. The pamphlet, "Serving Alcoholics With Special Needs" F-107 has an error in two places. On page 3, directly above the text: Alcoholics who are blind........it reads: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous intergroup-approval@world.std.com This text also appears on the last page, middle of page. The correct contact information for the Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous is: http://aa-intergroup.org At this email address you will find a help button, lists of online AA groups and much more info. Please pass this important information along at your face to face meetings. I plan to make little stickers with the correct info, and when I see pamphlets, put the correct info on them. Thanks Hugs,
Cherie' DOS April 26, 2004 One Day At A Time IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2043. . . . . . . . . . . . Success Rate in The First Year From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2004 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Following the 1989 Triennial Survey of Alcoholics Anonymous, a paper was written for A.A. providing some analysis of the of the 1977, 1980, 1983, 1986 and 1989 Surveys. One graph has been misiniterpreted by some A.A. critics as showing a low 5% recovery rate. That is NOT what it shows at all. Actually, 56% of those who stay for three months stay for a full year. C-1 "Percent of Those Coming to AA Within the First Year Who Have Remained the Indicated Number of Months." Month .. % 1 ... 19 2 ... 13
3 ... 10 4 ... 9
5 ... 8 6 ... 7
7 ... 7 8 ... 6
9 ... 6 10 .. 6
11 .. 6 12 .. 5
The second (percent) column is the distribution of the people who were present at the randomly selected groups on the day of the survey. The first column is what month "number" they were in. For example Line "3" says that 10% of the people in the sample (attending A.A. for less than a year) had been coming for two months but less than three months. You can see the attrition here but the second column is not the percent those staying that length of time. If nobody dropped out, every number of months would have 1/12th or 8.3% of the people. Since we often tell newcomers to take three months to decide if they are alcoholics, I multiply by 11.1 to create a third column with 100 in the 4th month. Month . % . Adjusted 1 ... 19 .. 210 2 ... 13 .. 144 3 ... 10 .. 111 4 ... 9 ... 100 <--- 5 ... 8 ... 89 6 ... 7 ... 78 7 ... 7 ... 77 8 ... 6 ... 67 9 ... 6 ... 67 10 .. 6 ... 66 11 .. 6 ... 66 12 .. 5 ... 56 Of those who were in their first month, about half decided they were not alcoholics or that A.A. was not for them and didn't stay for three months. It is reasonable to say that those who stay three months are interested in our program of recovery. Of these, over half stay active in A.A. at least a year. Visiting an A.A. meeting does not mean someone is an alcoholic. Leaving A.A. does not mean someone has returned to drinking. _______ Tom E
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2044. . . . . . . . . . . . Success Rate in The First Year From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2004 12:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, AAHistoryLovers: Rewritten to answer some questions... Every three years, A.A. "takes its inventory" by conducting a survey. This is done with a random sample of about six to ten thousand members at randomly selected groups during one week. Following the 1989 Triennial Survey of Alcoholics Anonymous, a paper was written for A.A. providing some analysis of the 1977, 1980, 1983, 1986 and 1989 Surveys. One graph in that paper (C-1 of Appendix C) has been misiniterpreted as showing a low 5% recovery rate in the first year. Critics of A.A. jumped on that but even friends misunderstood. That is NOT what it shows at all. Actually, 56% of those who stay for three months stay a full year. C-1 "Percent of Those Coming to AA Within the First Year Who Have Remained the Indicated Number of Months." Month Dist . New . 3mo 1 ... 19 ... 100 2 ... 13 .... 68 3 ... 10 .... 53 4 .... 9 .... 47 . 100 <=== Over 3 months 5 .... 8 .... 42 .. 89 6 .... 7 .... 42 .. 83 7 .... 7 .... 36 .. 77 8 .... 6 .... 34 .. 72 9 .... 6 .... 32 .. 68 10 ... 6 .... 30 .. 64 11 ... 6 .... 28 .. 60 12 ... 5 .... 26 .. 56 The first column is the "Month" number that people in the survey were in if they had been coming for less than a year. The second "Dist" column is the distribution as a percentage of the people in this sample on the day of the survey. For example Line "3" says that 10% of them had been coming for two months but less than three months. It is easy to see how the graph could be misunderstood by someone who hadn't read the whole article. The title of C-1 doesn't match the data. The original graph was scaled in terms of the "Dist" column here. Except for rounding, this column adds up to 100%. If the same number of people came to A.A. every month and none of them left, then a random sample would find the same number of people with each number of months. Every line in "Dist" would have 1/12th or 8.3% of the people. I have derived two columns to clarify the meaning. The "New" column is scaled to set 100% for the new people in their first month. Of those people, about half later decided they were not alcoholics or that A.A. was not for them (at that time) and dropped out with less than three months of attendance. It is reasonable and customary to say that those who stay three months are interested in the A.A. program of recovery. The "3mo" column shows that over half (56%) of those who keep coming to A.A. for three months stay active in A.A. at least a year. * Visiting an A.A. meeting does not mean someone is an alcoholic. * Visiting an A.A. meeting does not mean someone wants to get sober. * Leaving A.A. does not mean someone has returned to drinking. * The only factor that graph C-1 reports is attendance at meetings. * The data is the averages of five surveys 1977 through 1989. _______
Tom E IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2045. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s Nightmare Punctuation From: rogerwheatley2004 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2004 1:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recieved the digest of conference advisory actions in the Grapevine a few months ago. One action was that the conference recommended the punctuation in Dr. Bobs Nightmare be restored in the 4th Edition of the Big Book as it appeared in previous editions. I compared 4th and 3rd edition and did not recognize the difference. Anyone know what punctuation change this action refers to? Roger W.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2046. . . . . . . . . . . . Frank Buchman Keswick church...? From: John G . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2004 8:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the name of the Keswick church (in England's Lake District) where Oxford Group founder Frank Buchman had his spiritual experience in 1908? I have a chance upcoming to visit the area, and would like to stop by. John G.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2047. . . . . . . . . . . . Statement about the Big Book Question. From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2004 10:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Arial;">Dear AA History Lovers, Arial;"> Arial;">A statement was made in praise of the Big Book which indicated: "It's not what was put in it, but what was left out that made it so great." I think this came from either Reverend Samuel Shoemaker or Father Ed Dowling. Arial;"> Arial;">A documented answer would be much appreciated. Arial;"> Arial;">Thanks in advance, Arial;"> Arial;">Bob S., from Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2048. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Nightmare Punctuation From: Jan Baldwin . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2004 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Another that I found was on the second page of the story. There is a comma after Sunday School in the 4th edition and no comma in the third edition. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "rogerwheatley2004" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 1:36 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Bob's Nightmare Punctuation > >
> Grapevine a few months ago. One action was that the conference > recommended the punctuation in Dr. Bobs Nightmare be restored in the > 4th Edition of the Big Book as it appeared in previous editions. > I compared 4th and 3rd edition and did not recognize the difference. > Anyone know what punctuation change this action refers to? > > Roger W. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >
> > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2049. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Frank Buchman Keswick church...? From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2004 11:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "John G" > Does anyone know the name of the Keswick church (in England's Lake District) > where Oxford Group founder Frank Buchman had his spiritual experience in > 1908? I have a chance upcoming to visit the area, and would like to stop > by. >
In "Streams: The Flow of Inspiration from Dwight Moody to Frank Buchman", Mark
Guldseth gives the name as Titheburn Chapel. May or may not still be there, of course. Have a good trip! Cora
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Frank Buchman Keswick church...? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2004 8:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John, I can't find a name but it is described as a "little stone-built chapel" in Garth Lean's "On the Tail of a Comet." You might look around Keswick for such a building that was standing in 1908. The woman whom Buchman credited for turning him around was an evangelical preacher named Jessie Penn-Lewis. Mel Barger, Toledo ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: John G To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 9:58 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Frank Buchman Keswick church...? Does anyone know the name of the Keswick church (in England's Lake District) where Oxford Group founder Frank Buchman had his spiritual experience in 1908? I have a chance upcoming to visit the area, and would like to stop by. John G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2051. . . . . . . . . . . . Keswick Chapel & Buchman From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2004 8:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In 1906, Rev Frank N. D. Buchman started a settlement home for boys in Philadelphia. He wanted it to be as much of a true home as possible and he succeeded. When the Board of Directors wanted to cut expenses, he threatened to resign if they went through with it. They accepted his resignation. That was not what he had in mind. So, in 1907, he took his resentments on a tour of Europe. After quite some time, a visit to a chapel in Keswick, England, changed his life. In response to a sermon, he realized the burden his resentment was causing him. He wrote a letter of apology to each Board member confessing his own ill-will. The release this gave him was so great that he passed it on to others. This eventually led to creation of the Oxford Groups. Indirectly through Bill W and Dr Bob, that same message came to Alcoholics Anonymous. Here is some information about that event and the chapel as it appears in a 534+ page biography of Buchman. It seems the Keswick Tithebarn Rd. chapel was in use until 2003. I have some pictures which I can send on request. ---------------------------- ON THE TAIL OF A COMET - THE LIFE OF FRANK BUCHMEN (c) Copyright 1988 by Helmers & Howard, Publishers, Inc., P. O. Box 7407, Colorado Springs, CO 80933 USA Originally published in Great Britain by Constable and Co. Ltd under the title FRANK BUCHMAN: A LIFE (c) copyright 1985 Garth Lean Between Pages 116-117: Photo 5. right 'A little stone-built chapel in Keswick. Photo 6, below 'Thirty years later, Buchman recalls his experience in the chapel in 1908. Page 30:
In Germany, still sick at heart despite the outward liveliness, Buchman went to see von Bodelschwingh again. By July he was in Britain and decided to attend the Keswick Convention, an annual gathering of evangelical Christians. His hope was to see the reputed Congregational minister, F. B. Mayer, whom he had met at Northfield and who he believed might be able to help him. Meyer, however, was not there, and Buchman kept himself busy attending meetings and walking the Lakeland countryside. Then, one Sunday, on a whim, he dropped in on a service in a little stone-built chapel. It was sparsely attended - a congregation of only seventeen - and a woman was leading the service. She was the evangelist Jessie Penn-Lewis, whose husband was a descendant of the fmily of William Penn. She spoke about the Cross of Christ. It was hardly a new subject to Buchman. He had heard the doctrine of the Atonement exponded on a score of occasions at Mount Airy, taken notes on it, answered examination questions on it, preached about it. This woman, however, spoke so movingly about the Cross that, for the first time, it became a living and life-giving experience for him. 'She pictured the dying Christ as I had never seen him pictured before,' he recalled later. 'I saw the nails in the palms of His hands, I saw the bigger nail which held His feet. I saw the spear thrust in His side, and I saw the look of sorrow and infinite suffering in His face. I knew that I had wounded Him, that there was a great distance between myself and Him, and I knew that it was my sin of nursing ill-will. 'I thought of those six men back in Philadelphia who I felt had wronged me. They probably had, but I'd got so mixed upin the wrong that I was the seventh wrong man. Right in my conviction, I was wrong in harboring ill-will. I wanted my own way and my feelings were hurt. 'I began to see myself as God saw me, which was a very different picture than the one I had of myself. I don't know how you explain it, I can only tell you I sat there and realised how my sin, my pride, my selfishness and my ill-will had eclipsed me from God in Christ. I was in Christian work, I had given my life to those poor boys and many people might have said' how wonderful', but I did nto have victory because I was not in touch with God. My work had become my idol.' Pages 167-168: Arthur Strong, a young and successful professional photographer, spent a weekend with hm and his secretary, Michael Barrett, in the English Lake District in the lage 1930s, partly with the aim of finding and photographing the chapel in Keswick where Buchman had had his decisive eperience in 1908. BUchman was now aged 60. 'Frank's gaity is immense and he chips Mike like a schoolboy,' Strong recorded in his diary. 'We had constant laughter... In the car going there FB sang and whistled, he was so happy not to have any plans and engagements for two whole days. He sang old hymns and it was then that I reliised his age. To Keswick. . . Then the chapel. There were several possibilities... Frank warned us it was an ordinary place with nothing particular to distinguish it. Found the Tithebarn Methodist (Primitive) Church; opposite it is a bus depot. 'He sat where he had done thirty years before; then read the News Chronicle - he'd already read six other papers that day... Back at the hotel we changed for tennis and I played Frank. His energy was amazing; he serves well and has a good eye. He ran too. ---------------------------- A more recent view of the Keswick chapel at Tithebarn Road can be found at: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kcmethodists/primitivemore.html That article also explains the Methodist (Primitive) Church. ---------------------------- Tithebarn St, Keswick In the 1830s a Primitive Methodist minister, Rev R Lyon, visited Keswick and tried to start a cause there. It began with great numbers, and by 1833 there were 40 members. However the Society was led by the White family and when they left in 1836 the cause collapsed. By 1840 a new attempt had begun, but shortly after lapsed. Another cause, more permanent this time, arose in the mid-1850s. They met over a stable in Head's Lane, and by 1869 they built a church, in a visible place in the town. In 1894 a Sunday School was attached to the church. It is reputed that Frank Buchman, the founder of Moral Re-Armament, was converted during the Keswick Convention at a service at Tithebarn St in 1908. The members reluctantly agreed to close in 2003 and Methodism now focuses all its energies on the remaining site in Keswick at Southey Site IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2052. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Nightmare Punctuation From: Buzz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2004 1:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This comes from the background materials I received as Literature chair for my District: 3rd Edition Large Print 4th Edition Large print Page 172, line 7 Page 172, line 7 Sunday School (no comma) Sunday School, (comma added) Page 175, line 3 Page 175, line 3 I did, my (comma) I did my (comma removed) Page 175, line 9 Page 175, line 9 Finally my (no comma) Finally, my (comma added) Page 175, line 29 Page 175, line 29 old habits (no comma) old habits, (comma added) Page 176, line 23 Page 176, line 23 cellar and (no comma) cellar, and (comma added) Page 177, line 11 Page 177, line 11 tight and (no comma) tight, and (comma added) Page 178, line 25 Page 178, line 25 interested and (no comma) interested, and (comma added) Page 179, line 4 Page 179, line 4 afternoon, saying (comma) afternoon saying (comma deleted) Page 179, line 22 Page 179, line 22 dinner and (no comma) dinner, and (comma added) Page 180,line 4 Page 180,line4 write nearly (no comma) write, nearly (comma added) Buzz
At 01:36 PM 10/16/2004, you wrote: >I recieved the digest of conference advisory actions in the >Grapevine a few months ago. One action was that the conference >recommended the punctuation in Dr. Bobs Nightmare be restored in the >4th Edition of the Big Book as it appeared in previous editions. >I compared 4th and 3rd edition and did not recognize the difference. >Anyone know what punctuation change this action refers to? > >Roger W. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 2053. . . . . . . . . . . . Success Rate in Later Years From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2004 9:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How long have members of A.A. been sober? That is one of the questions in the survey among randomly selected groups in the U.S. and Canada every three years. Surveys are all done during a one to two week period. Everyone who is at a particular meeting of each of those groups is asked to participate. Following the 1989 Triennial Survey of Alcoholics Anonymous, a paper was written for A.A. providing some analysis of the 1977, 1980, 1983, 1986 and 1989 Surveys. One table showed the percentage of surveyed members who had been sober varying lengths of time and the average sobriety in years.
1-5 .. One year but less than five years >5 ... Five or more years sober Entries with dates beginning ** here are from that paper. This article continues that with information from later editions of "(P-48) Alcoholics Anonymous 19xx Membership Survey" LENGTH OF SOBRIETY IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Survey
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