Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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01/16/2006 - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) Damon, Each group is autonomous, and can adopt any meeting format it chooses. Since this is a history site, rather than a general AA discussion site, I think you might find it useful to go through the archives of this site and its predecessor site for postings on "preamble." My home group doesn't recite the Preamble, How It Works, the Traditions or the Steps. To save time and allow for more discussion, we just read a few paragraphs of the Big Book and let members jump in and discuss [in any order] the paragraphs read. It's a discussion meeting that actually has discussion. John Lee Member
Where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela to form the Ohio - - - From: "Mark Everett" (mark at go-concepts.com) Our Traditions allow each group to be autonomous, except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole. Reading or not reading anything at a meeting is a group choice. As I have traveled around this country and gone to many meetings in many places, I have noticed that some groups read How it Works and some don't. Most groups read the Preamble, but some don't and some read other versions. The most commonly accepted version has been published every month on the inside cover of the Grapevine for many decades. It is copyrighted and I think that it deserves some protection. There are earlier versions of the Preamble from the Grapevine - including the wording "..the only requirement for membership is an HONEST desire to stop drinking." We dropped HONEST a long time ago. I have heard local variations, and each group can do what it wants. If you don't approve and can't change the group conscience, get a coffee pot and start another group.
(flynn22896 at sbcglobal.net) Hi Damon, There is no 'requirement' for any group to read, do, say anything. The only thing that is suggested is an adherence to the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. The Preamble is copyrighted by the Grapevine therefore legally you could not change the words and still call it the Preamble. In short, reading of the Preamble is not required, but if you do, you would have to read it as is since it is copyrighted.
Tracy F
Chicago - - - From: Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Since the present Preface is made up mostly of bits and pieces drawn from earlier sources, many of them in the public domain, I'm not at all sure it would be a copyright violation for a local group to make modifications in it, particularly as long is it is for their own group only. Most of the Preface is not original material, and you can't put a copyright ex post facto on something somebody else wrote. Otherwise, I could put a copyright on Shakespeare's Hamlet and start collecting royalties from everyone who prints or performs it.
for some of the copyright issues involved. All that being said, I have noticed that we alcoholics have a tendency to believe that we can alter the AA program in various ways because "we are so much more intelligent" than the good oldtimers, and we usually make a mess of things when we do this. There were good reasons for choosing every single word in the present Preface (based on experience) instead of some other word, if you look at the history of how it developed.
which is repeated in letter after letter from Bill W., is "the right of the group to be wrong" (grin).
Preface at an AA meeting. An AA group can read anything at all that it wants to at an AA meeting, written by anybody at all, just like we have always done, going back to the 1930's, 40's, and 50's. That is an essential part of AA's Historic Heritage. - - - From: Mike S (lists at immuneit.com) If you look through the Twelve Traditions, you'll see no mention of the preamble. Read over traditions 2 and 4. Groups can largely run themselves as they see fit, and remember that AAWS is their trusted servant, not their boss.
arguing over wording or whether to have an anniversary party, etc. Some would say its a sign of a healthy group. Don't let something like this be a wedge, but don't let those with seniority run amok either.
(dkuber1990 at verizon.net) 4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole. Read the long version in the 12x12 for more insight! debi the service junkie sober in Aggieland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3838. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group conscience meetings From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 3:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a pamphlet available from AAWS called The AA Group which is available free for download at http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=100. This pamphlet covers everything a group ever needs to know about how to be a group and conduct its business.
available for download under the "Services for Members" link
"Service Material" http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98 on that page. All of this information is very helpful in understanding Alcoholics Anonymous. Happy Reading! debi the service junkie sober in Aggieland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group conscience meetings From: Doug Hart . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 6:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Group conscience and business meetings are well covered by the AA brochure, The AA Group, which is now online. These topics start on p. 27 at the link below. Doug Hart http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=100 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3840. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group conscience meetings From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 11:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ernie There are 2 pieces of AA literature that can be helpful for guidelines on group conscience/business meetings and the role of the chairperson or moderator in those meetings:
version). It contains guidelines for an informed group conscience, AA business meetings, voting in the home group and resolving group problems. These topics are all in the index at the beginning of the pamphlet.
version). It contains guidelines for a "sharing session." The group conscience/business meeting should be conducted as a sharing session.
site as searchable PDF files. Information below can be found by doing key word string searches with the current free Adobe Reader that can be downloaded from Adobe.com. It's useful to encourage an understanding and appreciation of what "informed group conscience" means as opposed to just "group conscience." It's also useful to encourage an understanding of what "substantial unanimity" means as opposed to "simple majority."
"business meeting" where group matters are discussed and acted upon and where group service positions are elected. It's also a meeting where group members can receive reports from group service positions and where members can express their concerns and receive information from other group members. The first part of Tradition 2 states that a group's ultimate authority is a
loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. The idea sounds great - but it doesn't happen automatically - it takes the cooperation of the members involved in the group conscience discussions to ensure that God gets the opportunity to express Himself rather than one or more members manipulating the meeting to their own ends and agenda and then claiming that God made the decision. "The AA Group" pamphlet adds an important word to the term "group
conscience" and suggests that the goal should be to seek an "informed group conscience." It also asks the question "What is an Informed AA Group
Conscience?" and answers it by stating: "The group conscience is the collective conscience of the group membership and thus represents substantial unanimity on an issue before definitive action is taken. This is achieved by the group members through the sharing of full information, individual points of view and the practice of AA principles. To be fully informed requires a willingness to listen to minority opinions with an open mind.
slowly -
discouraging formal motions until a clear sense of its collective view emerges. Placing principles before personalities, the membership is wary of dominant opinions. Its voice is heard when a well-informed group arrives at a decision. The result rests on more than a "yes" or "no" count - precisely because it is the spiritual expression of the group conscience. The term "informed group conscience" implies that pertinent information has been
studied and all views have been heard before the group votes." This is not a play on words - it's really an appeal to AA members who are
participating in the formation of group conscience to do so in a way that ensures that the final decision is "informed" and reflects unity.
It's a process that forms the very cornerstone of AA's service structure. In the 12 Concepts for World Service it's called "the right of participation" and appears in Concept 4. In Concept 5, it further states "Throughout our world service structure, a traditional "Right of Appeal" ought to prevail, thus assuring us that
minority opinion will be heard and that petitions for the redress of personal grievances will be carefully considered. As with all group-conscience matters, each AA member has 1 vote; and this, ideally, is voiced through the home group. It's as simple as the idea that the residents of NY City elect the mayor of NY City and the residents of Chicago do not elect the mayor of NY City. Each elects their own mayors and resolves their own matters locally. A vote should be available to members who, by their attendance, (of perhaps at least one month) have established the group as their home group. Otherwise someone can stack a group conscience meeting with recruited votes of AA members having a different home group (regrettably it does happen - "we are not saints"). The bottom line is that a group conscience decision should reflect 2 important qualities: 1st, that it is informed, 2nd, that it reflects "substantial unanimity." Some helpful ways to achieve this are:
business meeting until a matter is first fully discussed. Don't rush into a decision or ramrod it through. By the same token filibustering should not be permitted either. Each participant in the discussions should have a fixed, and reasonably brief, amount of time to speak and then let someone else have the opportunity to speak.
accusations (everything benefits from restraint of pen and tongue). It also helps to ask the participants to not keep saying the same things over and over. It's ok to just say that I agree with what so and so said. 3. Minority or dissenting views should receive due respect and courtesy. 4. When a formal motion is presented it should, if possible, be worded in a manner that tries to unite or bring together the collective views expressed by the members participating in the discussions.
very
passionate about a particular matter. However, a willingness to cooperate in both give and take and a respect for the views of others will always move the discussions in the right direction and move the decisions toward unity and fellowship. One of the considerations that should be apparent for arriving at an informed group conscience is that the way something is discussed can be just as important as what is being discussed. The AA Service Manual contains information for conducting something called a "sharing session." There are many things in AA that can be conducted as a sharing session, whether it's a committee meeting, a group inventory and very importantly a group conscience or business meeting. In a sharing session, everyone has a chance to use their experience, strength and hope to contribute ideas and opinions about the matter being discussed. The format of a sharing session is aimed at drawing out the ideas of even the shyest participant, and keeps anyone from dominating the meeting. Each person offers an opinion, and never needs to defend it. It also helps to avoid debates and arguments. It's important that the chairperson, or moderator, of a sharing session
functions as a timekeeper or facilitator and not as an active participant in the discussions. A meeting chair's primary duties are to try to keep the meeting moving along and encouraging the involvement of the meeting participants. Sometimes it's useful to ask the District Committee Member
(DCM) or other member of the Area Committee to serve as a neutral and non-participating chairperson, particularly if a matter is of significant importance or has the potential to be volatile or divisive.
for a specified time (2 minutes is typical - or whatever the group agrees upon). Usually no one is permitted to speak a second time on the same subject until all who wish to have had an opportunity to speak for the first time. When multiple rounds of discussion occur it is often useful to limit those rounds to 1 minute of discussion per member. Discussions should go around among the attendees one at a time in the same order for each round. Members who do not wish to speak can just pass but should be offered the opportunity to speak during their turn. No one should be allowed to just jump in and start talking or debating. In particular, the chairperson or moderator should not engage in the discussions. If he/she wishes to join the discussions then someone else should chair or moderate the meeting. It's very important to avoid a situation where a member speaks
and then the chair speaks a member speaks and then the chair speaks again, etc., etc. It's a formula for failure where the chair is doing little more than holding court. That's why it's important that the chair not be an active participant in discussions. To achieve what is called "substantial unanimity" some matters (particularly very important or sensitive matters) should be resolved by more than just a simple majority vote or they can turn out to be very divisive. In many cases a simple majority vote does little more than divide the group into 2 opposing factions and that is not healthy to group unity. Typically in Area and District service committees and in the General Service Conference, matters under discussion usually require a 2/3 majority for adoption (and in some rare but very important cases a 3/4 majority). This is not done to make things more difficult to do. It's done to ensure that the decision has the backing of most of the participants and reflects substantial unanimity. It also helps individual members to learn how to compromise. If a loving God expressing Himself in the group conscience is our ultimate authority, it follows that AA leaders are not authorities in the usual sense, but are rather servants and instruments of the group conscience. Then who is in charge in AA? AA is a spiritual movement and the ultimate authority in AA is the spiritual concept of the informed group conscience. Almost every group and Fellowship problem can be solved through the process of an informed group conscience and a respect for AA principles. For all involved, a good sense of humor, cooling off periods, patience, courtesy, willingness to listen and to wait - plus a sense of fairness and trust in a "Power greater than ourselves" - have been found to be far more effective than legalistic arguments or personal accusations or "frothy emotional appeal."
Arthur
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Kurtz Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:23 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Group conscience meetings
"Do you have any guidelines, electronically available, on the subject of group conscience and group business meetings?. In particular the role of the Chairperson?" I trust some AAHL members will be interested in the topic; responses may also be posted directly to "JOHN e REID" (jre33756 at bigpond.net.au) Kell C (kellcheevers at hotmail.com) or Denise H Brisbane Traditions (jha at powerup.com.au) Thanks for this group's help. ernie kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3841. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Who were Jim and Eddie the atheists? From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 8:40:00 PM
are available From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 11:52:00 PM
are available on the AA.org web site as searchable PDF files that can be downloaded.
Click on Services for Members Click on Box 4-5-9 News and Notes from GSO A link to the current issue is listed Click on the drop-down list to access past issue
Arthur
++++Message 3844. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who were Jim and Eddie the atheists? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2006 3:26:00 PM
In Kurz, "Not God," note 22 on PAGE 375, (NOT page 275 as was given in Message #3833): "Ed" in the 12 and 12 was probably Jim Burwell. From Tom E. (tom2cor134 at yahoo.com) Ernest Kurtz, author of "Not God," in note 22 on page 375, said that the man who was given the pseudonym of "Ed" in the story in the 12 and 12, Tradition Three, pp. 143-145 (in the current edition) was probably Jim Burwell.
person as "Jim the atheist," if the person who told you about "Ed the atheist" was thinking about the story in the 12 and 12. Jim had a profound impact on the writing of the Big Book in terms of how God was presented. "The Vicious Cycle" is his story in the Big Book.
has Nancy Olson's short biographies of Jim Burwell -- "The Vicious Cycle" Henry (Hank) Parkhurst -- "The Unbeliever" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3845. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who were Jim and Eddie the atheists? From: man_dred . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2006 1:47:00 PM
and Bill worked with throughout the summer of 1935. (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, pp.77 -79)
written about this Eddie. He was from Cleveland/Akron area. They gave up on him and had their first success with Bill Dotson. Eddie reportedly showed up at Dr. Bob's funeral with approx. 1 year of sobriety according to Bob Smith Jr. (Smitty).
Although this particular Eddie was an atheist, and it's possible this is the one you mentioned... Jim Burwell was the notorious atheist in the 3rd Tradition chapter of the 12x12, who was referred to as "Ed."
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