Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab)

2.1 pm

If there were a free vote on the treaty, which will not happen, I doubt that many Members would vote for it. I would be surprised if more than 25 or 30 did so. As I have said, however, this is the House of Commons. Party politics dominate here, and I certainly have no complaints about that.

Bankers are not a group whom I would normally defend. They do not fall within the category of causes for which I have campaigned for 40 years and more, involving people who have been caught up in various cases and whom I have wished to defend. When, on past occasions, we have talked of the four, the five or the six, they have not been bankers. Perhaps this is a first.

I should also make it as clear as possible that if there have been dishonest dealings, as there may well have been, I am the last person to try to defend them. White-collar crime should certainly be taken seriously. It may well be that these three are guilty. They may have been seriously involved in all the dishonesty of Enron. If that is the case, obviously they should pay the penalty.

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It has been suggested by one or two people—not in today’s debate—that there has been a clever PR exercise in which the three have made themselves out to be heroes. If that is the case, to a large extent the Government have played into their hands. What is happening is a result of the treaty, and I do not think that that should be overlooked.

This is not a matter of bankers. It is the principle that concerns me: the principle of an unfair arrangement between the United States and ourselves. I know that some Members—perhaps I may cite my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin)—have concerns about the United States criminal justice system. That is not necessarily my concern. I do not work on the basis that the American legal system is so inferior, or indeed inferior in any way, to the British criminal justice system. I am not a lawyer, but for some time all the evidence has suggested to me—despite Guantanamo, and despite what has happened more recently in the United States—that the United States is a country based on law, and that its criminal justice system is exercised no less than is ours in this country.

Mr. Hogg: When the hon. Gentleman reflects on the American system, perhaps he should keep in mind Guantanamo Bay, and also the extraordinarily long prison sentences that are being imposed in respect of matters that would attract very modest sentences in this country.

Mr. Winnick: At the cost of arguing against myself, I did mention Guantanamo. I do not think there is any evidence that the three people involved in this case will be given uniforms like those who are detained there. We should also bear in mind what the United States Supreme Court has decided on Guantanamo—a decision of which I am sure the right hon. and learned Gentleman is aware. By and large, on the basis of what I have read and seen in films—although it may not reflect reality—I am by no means persuaded that the United States criminal justice system is inferior to ours. That is not part of my argument today, although it may be part of the arguments of others.

Let me return to the reason why I am concerned enough to speak in the debate. The treaty between the United States and ourselves is one-sided. As has been emphasised enough times before, and will be emphasised again, it is not reciprocal. We will not be able to extradite from the United States people living there, as US nationals or otherwise, on the same basis that enables the United States to extradite people from Britain.

All that I would ask the Government—not, I repeat, as a lawyer—is why the same level of evidence is not required on both sides. That, surely, is the issue: that is the principle that we are debating. It is simply not good enough to argue that the earlier treaty tended to be more one-sided in Britain’s favour—although that may be so. In fact, the consensus is that it was slightly more one-sided in Britain’s favour. But surely the remedy is not to reverse that. Surely the remedy is obvious, even, as I say, to a non-lawyer. There should be a balance: the same level of evidence should be the requirement. That is not the position now, and despite what has been
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argued by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General and others, I simply cannot be persuaded that what is being done is the remedy.

The Solicitor-General: I have listened carefully to my hon. Friend’s argument, and it is an important argument—but, with the greatest respect to my hon. Friend, he is making a legal point. He is claiming that there is not a broad similarity between the two tests. As far as I can see, this is not a one-sided treaty, and, more particularly, the Act is not a one-sided Act. Exact reciprocity between two different legal systems is not possible, but what we have is broadly similar—sufficiently similar to be as good as anything that we are ever likely to get in terms of equality between the tests in the two countries. That is the legal position.

Mr. Winnick: I have listened to what has just been said. I have also read the report of the debate in the other place, and it appears to me that the position is not as my hon. and learned Friend has described it. That balance does not exist; if it did, the present controversy would not have arisen. The level of evidence required for this country to secure the extradition of a United States national, or someone living in the United States, to Britain is not the same as the level of evidence that is required for the opposite procedure.

Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there are two imbalances? One is the imbalance inherent in the treaty—even if it were signed by both parties—but the more acute imbalance is the fact that the treaty is not even signed by the other party. Does he agree that when signing a treaty with the US, we have to be conscious that it involves a relationship with the Senate, not just the Administration? The American Civil Liberties Union and the Irish lobby campaigned strenuously from day one to ensure that the treaty was not ratified, so is it not obvious that the British Government must have known that obtaining that signature was near impossible?

Mr. Winnick: The hon. Lady makes just the point that I was about to make. First, the treaty has not been ratified. Indeed, it could well be argued on the American side that there is no need for any hurry. If it is being implemented on the British side, why should there be any hurry on the part of the American Senate to ratify it? There is no incentive to do so. The hon. Lady rightly made that first point, and her second one, too, remains relevant. Even if it is ratified the imbalance remains, so it is not just a question of the Senate acting in due course. Apparently, great efforts are being made on the British side to get ratification, but even if that happens, the imbalance and the controversy will continue. As has been said already, no other country in Europe—not even countries that are no less favourable allies than ourselves—has the same sort of arrangement that we have negotiated with the United States.

I conclude my brief remarks by saying that I am far from being anti-American, and I have shown that over recent events. Like the Prime Minister, though perhaps

Obviously, I do not work on the basis that we are necessarily countries of equal size or influence; it would be nonsense to believe that. I am concerned, however, that there is a growing feeling in Britain, even among people who would not view themselves as anti-American, that in our relationship with the US we are not getting the balance and equality that we should. People feel that what the US wants, we concede without too much difficulty, and without going properly through all the ramifications. There is a real danger that such feeling could turn into real antagonism towards the US, which, as I said, would certainly not be in Britain’s interest.

I ask the Solicitor-General to reflect on the fact that we are talking about three individuals now, but who knows what will happen next year or the year after? It may not necessarily be bankers next time. If that happens, there will be far more of an outcry on the Labour Benches than we have seen today. The principle is the important thing, and I hope that even at this late stage, my right hon. Friend will give further consideration to this matter. There is a great deal of anxiety in the country. He may think otherwise, but for all the reasons advanced in the debate, I believe that the anxiety is very considerable.