Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)

3.4 pm

I, like my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox), have considerable experience in the criminal courts. I can say without any question that those who are extradited and tried

Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for citing the problems for those who are extradited, such as my constituent, Gary McKinnon, and his family. He has expressed great concern that as someone who does not have means—he is on benefits—he will have great difficulty meeting any bail conditions with which he will be obliged to comply. We heard the concerns expressed by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), and Gary McKinnon will not be able to comply with any of the conditions that we know might be put forward, such as high financial penalties.

Mr. Hogg: My hon. Friend makes an important point. This goes back to what the Prime Minister said: bail might be granted, but on conditions. If one cannot meet the conditions, one does not get bail.

Dr. Murrison: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?

Mr. Hogg: Forgive me, but I had better press on because I think that the wind-ups will start in about 10 minutes.

My second point is specific to the United States. I speak as one who is a longstanding friend of the United States. My grandmother was an American citizen from Tennessee, and my father was proud of his close relations with the United States. My children have very close relations with the United States. However, I am deeply troubled by aspects of its policy and, especially, about its attitude towards the legal process. We cannot overlook Guantanamo Bay and we must not overlook extraordinary rendition. Although the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) was right to say that the Supreme Court has intervened—that is a good thing—the situation tells us about the underlying attitude of the Administration.

We must keep two related points in mind. First, the lengths of the sentences that are being imposed in the United States in respect of white-collar fraud are quite different from those imposed in this country. I am well aware that Mr. Lay is dead and has not been sentenced, but there was much discussion of the fact that he would have to spend years and years of his life in prison—perhaps a whole life sentence—which would have been wholly disproportionate to what we would impose in Europe.

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I have been in many prisons. I was the Minister with responsibility for prisons, and I visit my clients in prison regularly in the United Kingdom. I have also seen United States prisons and frankly they are ghastly. Those that I have seen are an affront to civilisation. It seems to me that that is the background against which we ought to consider our attitude towards extradition.

That brings me on to two final points: first, what we should do now; and secondly, the longer term. As to what we should do now, we should stop the extradition of these three persons. We can do so because, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe pointed out, there is the order-making power by which we can de-designate the United States as a designated country. We should do that because the other place has passed amendments which, if carried in this place, would have that effect. We will debate that in October. It would be monstrous if we approved those changes, yet in the interim these three people were sent to the United States. So we should de-designate the United States immediately.

Mr. Winnick: When the United States authorities read the debate, if they are not watching it, will it not help if they know the feelings of Members and the pressure from them? The fact that not one single Back-Bench Labour Member has spoken against what is being advocated by many of us is an indication of the strength of feeling in the House of Commons.

Mr. Hogg: That is a valuable suggestion. The Americans have a distinguished ambassador in Britain. I feel sure that his officials in the embassy will be looking at what has been said in the Chamber and in the other place, and I very much hope that they will report back to their Administration.

There are two other steps that we should take immediately. We should immediately review the 2003 treaty. We can terminate it under article 24 in order to bring it to an end. I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said on that point. Lastly, we must look again at the 2003 Act. That takes me to the last point that I want to make.

When we look at the 2003 Act, we must ask ourselves whether there is sufficient safeguard for our citizens. I believe that the Act needs amendment, in at least two particulars. First, we need to reintroduce something like a prima facie test. It has been explained by other right hon. and hon. Members, so I will not repeat it, but a prima facie test needs to be reincorporated in our extradition law, as the United States in its constitution provides for its citizens. Secondly, I very much agree with the forum test, which is a point that my hon. Friend and others made. The district judge ought to have the discretion to refuse extradition on the grounds that it is more appropriate—the language is negotiable—that the trial should take place in the United Kingdom and not in the jurisdiction of the country seeking extradition.

I have been brief because this is an important and urgent matter and others wish to speak. The liberty of our citizens is at stake and, for that matter, the good name of the United States.

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