Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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++++Message 3846. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The reading of "How it Works" at the beginning of meeti... From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2006 4:10:00 PM
who brought AA to Calif. yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3847. . . . . . . . . . . . Silkworth''s Psychopath From: robyn mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2006 10:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Everybody, Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath as it applied in the 1930s? Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition. I have gleaned the term might have been used instead of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am quite possibly wrong.
________________________ From the moderator: The big problem here is figuring out exactly what the term "psychopath" referred to in the early twentieth century, in other words, sixty to a hundred years ago. It refers TODAY to someone who shows a total moral blindness, who can do great harm to other people without feeling any moral qualms or remorse. They are very frightening people. But the article on psychopaths in the wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy says that the term ""was once used to denote any form of mental illness." So the term has changed its meaning over the years. So does anybody know enough about the history of psychiatry to tell us NOT what the term means today, BUT INSTEAD what the term meant in Silkworth's day, and even earlier, back when William James wrote his Varieties of Religious Experience at the very beginning of the twentieth century, over a hundred years ago?
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2006 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Ernest Kurtz" (kurtzern at umich.edu) To Tom E. and Glenn C. -- You may well be right. I am pretty sure that there was more than one "Eddie" in early Akron -- I remember some confusion on that when I was interviewing Ann Craw. I think the non-Reilly Eddie committed suicide in Cleveland very early on. I'm also inclined to think that when Bill used a phrase such as "we shall call," he did not then use the real name.
deluged by letters asking him to explain the difference between "defects of character" and "shortcomings" in the Twelve Steps: "I never dreamed so many people would read so much into my simple words."
like nothing more than seeing *Not-God* improved. It is sadly out of date, with all that has been discovered since 1978, and it is my fondest hope that these discrepancies, little and large, finally motivate someone to undertake the task of producing a completely new "authoritative" history of A.A. ernie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3849. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Required reading of the Preamble From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2006 7:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One point in the replies is historically incorrect; the AA Preamble was Conference-approved in 1958. In June 1947, what we today call the "AA Preamble" first appeared in the Grapevine. It was written by Tom Y, Grapevine's first editor, and was based on the foreword to the first edition Big Book. Today, it is a common reading at the beginning of AA meetings and that's how, over time, it came to be called the "AA Preamble."
from the term "honest desire to stop drinking" in the original AA Preamble. AA legend sometimes erroneously states that the word "honest" was removed from Tradition 3. Neither the long nor short form of Tradition 3 ever contained the word "honest." The term "honest desire to stop drinking" is from the Foreword to the first Edition Big Book. The 1958 Conference advisory action also led to changing the original wording of the AA Preamble from "AA has no dues or fees" to "There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions."
Board in the summer of 1958. As of 1958, the changes resulted in a Conference-approved version of the AA Preamble as it is worded today. Cheers Arthur
From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Just so you know, the Preamble is NOT Conference Approved Literature, it is written and copyrighted by the AA Grapevine. Also, it is DEFINITELY NOT required to be read at every sanctioned group. Namaste. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3850. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby Thacher''s Grave From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2006 3:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know where Ebby Thacher is buried in Albany? Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3851. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ebby Thacher''s Grave From: kentedavis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2006 1:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From kentedavis, Mel Barger, and Arthur Sheehan. - - - From: kentedavis@aol.com (kentedavis at aol.com) Ebby Thacher was buried in Albany Rural Cemetery. The site is off of Middle Ridge Rd, Plot 56. The cemetery can be found at the corner of Broadway and Cemetery Ave. There are a number of photos of this historical cemetary at the Albany Rural Cemetery Website: http://www.albanyruralcemetery.org/albrurcem/index.html
and tombs at various of the gravesites at: http://www.albanyruralcemetery.org/albrurcem/Images/gallery/index.htm
Governors, 3 members of the Continental Congress, 2 members of the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention, 13 members of the Colonial Assembly, 8 Presidential Cabinet members, 5 Ambassadors and many Senators, Congressmen, and Judges. - - - From: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) Hi Chris, Ebby Thacher is buried in the Albany Rural Cemetery, north of the city. He is in a large family plot with perhaps 15 to 20 graves of other family members. The cemetery is large and hilly, with lots of winding roads. If possible, it's best to get directions from the office, as it's almost impossible to find the plot just by driving around. I visited the cemetery twice with Thacher family members and we got lost both times! Mel Barger - - - From: "Art Sheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Hi Chris In the book "Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W." by Mel B on page 144 it states: "Ebby was laid to rest next to his brother Ken in the family plot in the Albany Rural Cemetery, just north of the city. In death, he rejoined his prominent family. The large monument that defines the Thacher plot is that of George H. Thacher, Ebby's distinguished grandfather and founder of the family firm. Ebby's parents and other relatives are also buried there." Cheers Arthur
++++Message 3852. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Silkworth''s Psychopath From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 8:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Robyn, I just sent you an attachment with all the articles I have found written by and about Dr. Silkworth. If you do a search on "psychopath" within this attachment you'll find 11 uses of the word. Maybe one will explain a little bit more about what he means when he uses the word. Also, here are some definitions found in two dictionaries I have (one is from 1936 and one is from 1938). Hope all this is helpful, take it easy and God bless.
Barefoot Bill "One who is morally irresponsible; any disease of the mind, insanity; mental disease or disorder." - - - -----Original Message----- From: robyn mitchell Subject: Silkworth's Psychopath
as it applied in the 1930s? Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition. I have gleaned the term might have been used instead of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am quite possibly wrong.
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 9:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The impression I get from the Oxford English Dictionary is that there have always been two slightly different usages of the term. The earliest one the OED identifies is from 1885: "The psychopath . . . is a type which has only recently come under the notice of medical science . . . Beside his own person and his own interests, nothing is sacred to the psychopath." But another quote, from 1890, describes the psychopath as "a being whom Russian laws refuse to punish even for murder." In the second quote, as in some other writings of the time, the term psychopath seems to mean the same thing as "psychotic, " a person with such severe mental derangement that they are unable to distinguish reality from delusion. We now know that schizophrenics are rarely violent, but in the old days they were assumed to be extremely dangerous. The mid-20th century meaning of "psychopath" (given by Glenn in the last post) derived from the concept of the insane as violent and dangerous. The current diagnostic category for someone who appears sane in other respects but lacks empathy or conscience, is "antisocial personality disorder". This has largely replaced the term "psychopath," although either term can be used. But back to James and Silkworth. James meant "psychotic" or "schizophrenic." He was referring to George Fox, the founder of the Quaker religion. Everyone who knew Fox recognized him as a man of great spiritual gifts, even those who wanted him locked up for disturbing the peace. Yet, his visions were so strange and vivid that they sometimes resembled those of a schizophrenic. James was illustrating his point that the twice-born, the most clearly God-conscious, would often be considered insane by ordinary medical criteria. He certainly wasn't saying that Fox was evil.
as a synonym for "emotionally unstable." Unlike James, Silkworth didn't describe delusional thinking such as a schizophrenic might have. Nor was he referring to antisocial personality disorder. I think he meant significant mental illness of any type, which would have made recovery from alcoholism very difficult (especially in the days before modern psychiatric medications were available). Bipolar disorder, the fashionable disease of our day, comes to mind. Cora --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, robyn mitchell > > Hi Everybody, > > Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath > as it applied in the 1930s? > > Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William > James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition. > > I have gleaned the term might have been used instead > of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am > quite possibly wrong. > > Thanks
> ________________________ > > From the moderator: > > The big problem here is figuring out exactly what > the term "psychopath" referred to in the early > twentieth century, in other words, sixty to a > hundred years ago. > > It refers TODAY to someone who shows a total moral > blindness, who can do great harm to other people > without feeling any moral qualms or remorse. They > are very frightening people. > > But the article on psychopaths in the wikipedia > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy > says that the term ""was once used to denote any > form of mental illness." > > So the term has changed its meaning over the years. > > So does anybody know enough about the history of > psychiatry to tell us NOT what the term means today, > BUT INSTEAD what the term meant in Silkworth's day, > and even earlier, back when William James wrote his > Varieties of Religious Experience at the very > beginning of the twentieth century, over a hundred > years ago? > > Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3854. . . . . . . . . . . . Word changes in the Big Book From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 2:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Seething cauldrens of debate" can come from the most innocuous of circumstances. In a Big Book Study while reading page 66 from my 3rd Edition I read, "We turned back to the list, for it held the key to the future. We were prepared to look at it from an entirely different angle. We began to see that the world and its people really dominated us. In that state, the wrong-doing of others, fancied or real, had power to actually kill. How could we escape? We saw that these resentments must be mastered, but how? We could not wish them away any more than alcohol."
"We were prepared to look for it [not "at it"] from an entirely different angle."
changed the meaning, etc., but that is not the purpose of my query...
following differences in the Edtions and Printings: Page edit./printing Date "at" or "for" 79 1st, 11th June 1947 "at" 66 2nd, 7th 1965 "for" 66 3rd, 10th 1981 "for" 66 3rd, 56th 1996 "at" 66 4th, 14th Sept., 2004 "at"
Edition it says, "Third Edition: New and Revised." New and Revised? I just have a curiosity as to any information surrounding the "at" vs. "for" and the "New and Revised."
From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 2:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard Dr Bob`s son,Smitty speak once and he talked about "Eddie R." In Sue`s and Smitty`s book,Children of the Healer on page 41, Sue gives a account of Eddie but it does not mention whether he was an atheist or not. I did run across a few interesting facts about Eddie as told first by Sue,and then Smitty. Sue -- page 41: Eddie R was their first try at sobering up someone after Dr Bob got sober. He would shimmie down the drainpipe and run off and get drunk. He even chased Anne with a butcher knife once. He had a wife and several kids at the time. He blacked his wife`s eyes once while staying at Dr Bob's house. She remembers how disapointed her Dad and Bill was when Eddie didn`t want it... Smitty remembers Eddie R with this account from page 147: Eddie was locked in a bedroom and Eddie would slide down a drainpipe and get drunk. They captured him several times,and one day he escaped and called them from Cleveland and said he was going to commit sucide. He wanted to give them time to get there and be witnesses. He ate a tuna sandwich once at Dr. Bob's and he had a allergy to tuna, and he grabbed a butcher knife and chased Anne around.They finally took him back to Ann Arbor and had him recommitted to the mental institution. He later was discovered to have a underlying mental condition of some kind. When Dr Bob passed,Eddie showed up for his funeral, and said he was sober one year and a member of the Youngstown group. Tommy - - - See AAHL message #3845 from "man_dred" (man_dred at yahoo.co.uk) > > There was another atheist named Eddie R. who Dr. Bob > and Bill worked with throughout the summer of 1935. > (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, pp.77 -79) > > He was not well known and there was not much > written about this Eddie. He was from Cleveland/Akron > area. They gave up on him and had their first success > with Bill Dotson.
psychopath From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 3:35:00 PM
(crescentdave at yahoo.com) has sent a reference to an extremely useful historical account of the development of the concept of the psychopath: http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf This article should be read carefully by anyone who wants to investigate what the word psychopath meant at various points in the twentieth century. We need to observe when the word was being used in order to understand what it meant to the author. In particular, THE TERM PSYCHOPATH HAD A MAJOR CHANGE IN MEANING AROUND 1941.
Experience, was based on lectures given in 1901-1902. He wrote his famous book on the Principles of Psychology a decade earlier, in 1890. 1939: William Duncan Silkworth, M.D., (1873?-1951) was Director of the Charles B. Towns Hospital for Drug and Alcohol Addictions in New York City in the 1930s, during which time Bill Wilson was admitted on various occasions for alcoholism. Silkworth had a profound influence on Wilson and introduced him to the idea that alcoholism had a pathological, disease- like basis. Silkworth wrote the chapter titled "The Doctor's Opinion" in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" which came out in 1939. THEN COMES THE SHIFT IN THE MEANING OF THE WORD PSYCHOPATH 1940's: The other three major early AA authors did not begin writing until the 1940's, by which time the meaning of the term psychopath had changed:
Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), first Golden Book, 1947 Richmond Walker, Twenty-Four Hours a Day, 1948
An important historical source for information about AA ideas at that time, as they were being disseminated to the general public; this is an important source (which has not been utilized nearly as much as it ought) for understanding one the major strands of early AA thought. Anyone who is going to write a real history of early AA has to include Marty and her friends, including not only the people who helped Marty put out the Grapevine during its first few years, but also Sgt. Bill S. (the major spokesman for the psychologically-oriented wing of early AA) and Nancy Olson, who was the founder of the AAHistoryLovers and the author of "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends" (describing AA in the 1970's). - - - Meanwhile, over the course of the past two centuries, the concept of the psychopath was undergoing various shifts in meaning. The following is taken from a table in http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf 1812 -- Rush -- moral alienation of the mind, total perversion of the moral faculties 1835 -- Prichard -- moral insanity, deplorable defect in personality, no volitional control, which should be a legal defense
(inborn) personality type -- the prognosis depends on whether it is chronic or temporary
of a criminal class affected by cerebral deficits, however it is useless to punish those who cannot control their behavior 1904 -- Krafft-Ebing -- morally depraved, savages in society -- the prognosis is that they cannot be helped at all, and must be confined to asylums indefinitely 1915 -- Kraepelin -- psychopathic personalities, they are the most vicious and wicked, born criminal, liars, swindlers -- prognosis is poor
narcissistic interpersonal style -- prognosis is poor - - - WITH THANKS TO DAVID JOHNSON FOR SENDING US THIS: Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 From: "David Johnson" Subject: Historical Note on Psychopathology
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