Prince William County Virginia Clerk’s Loose Papers

vessel in the brain.

Answer – I think the exertion might cause it, but not the shock.

Q. A man might have a severe shock to the spinal cord through an injury to the shoulder, might he not? Answer – I don’t think so.

Q. You don’t think that? Answer – No, not unless it was very severe.

Q. Are not the bones of the shoulder connected with the same frame-work that the spinal column is connected with? Answer – Not exactly, no more than by muscle attachment.

Q. It is all closely connected by muscle attachment? Answer Yes, sir.

Q. So then a blow to the shoulder would cause shock to the spinal cord? Answer – If it was sufficient.

Q. And from there to the brain? Answer – If the blow was sufficient.

Q. I understand you were there three hours after the accident, at his house, and saw Mr. Sullivan three hours after the accident? Answer I don’t know how long; the news had to come to Manassas, and I got on the wreck car and went there.

Q. You had gotten the news at Manassas, and found the car and went down there? Answer – I didn’t have to find it, the car was ready when I got there.

Mr. Keith: In all of your experience did you ever know a blow to the head or any part of the body

to produce epilepsy? Answer – Never in my life.

of them. Q. How many cases? Answer – I don’t know. Q. What was the cause of them? Answer – That is a question that has never been settled by the medical profession. Q. Where is the seap of epilepsy, doctor? Answer – It is supposed to be the brain, I reckon. Q. Is it in the brain or in what is called the medulla oblongata at the end of the spinal cord? Answer – You are too hard for me. Q. It might be in the spinal cord, the seat of epilepsy? Answer – It might be. Q. Do you disagree with doctors or specialists on epilepsy who claim that traumatism or a blow is the most common form of epilepsy? Answer – I do.

Q. Have you ever heard of a child falling from the arms of a nurse, or falling on the hearth of a fireside, and afterwards having epilepsy from that, and being a confirmed epileptic? Answer – No, I never did.

Q. Would a blow that caused overlapping of the skull cause epilepsy? Answer – I suppose compression of the brain would cause epilepsy.

Q. Now, you admit that, don’t you? Answer – It might cause epilepsy.

Q. And it could be caused by overlapping of the skull, couldn’t it? Answer – I never saw one caused by overlapping the skull.

Q. But you admit it could be that way? Answer – It might be.

Q. You know that when babies are laid on their backs by nurses there follows often an overlapping of the skull? Answer – No.

Q. Did you ever hear of trismus nascentium, the overlapping of the skull? Answer – No.

Q. What medical books have you read in late years? Answer – I can’t remember.

Q. Have you ever read a book called Trismus Nascentium, the cause of overlapping of the skull in infants? Answer – No.

Q. Do you say it is not a fact? Answer – I never heard anything about it.

(Mr. Hall here refers to the testimony of Dr. Bacon in regard to subject above referred to and reads same to Mr. Mackey)

AFTERNOON SESSION

V. A. Payne, another witness called on behalf of the Southern Railway Company, being duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Q. Captain, what is your employment? Answer – Conductor, Southern Railway.

Q. How long have you been a conductor? Answer – 23 years.

Q. Running on the Southern Railway all that time? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. Were you the conductor on No. 17 that was in the accident the 23^rd of February 1915? Answer Yes, sir

Q. When did you leave Alexandria? Answer – We left Alexandria about 5:12 that was our leaving time.

Q. What time did you reach the point where this accident took place? Answer – 6:32

Q. Were you running on your usual schedule? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. How fast were you running then? Answer – I judge we were making about 30 to 35 miles an hour.

Q. Will you state to the jury what took place at the time of the accident, just how it occurred, so far as you observed it? Answer – I didn’t see it until after it was all over. I was inside of the car and couldn’t see what was in front of us until after it was all over.

Q. After it was all over did you go through the coaches that were left on the track? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. What coaches were left on the track, what cars? Answer – The first class coach, as we call it, had all the wheels on the track, and the combination car, the north truck was on the track and the south truck was setting up on a pile of rubbish or trash in that shape (illustrating).

Q. The first class coach, as you call it, did not leave the track at all? Answer – No, sir.

Q. How soon after the accident did you go through that coach? Answer – It wasn’t over a couple of minutes

Q. Which end of the coach did you get on? Answer – I came through the combined car through the south end of the car.

Q. What was the condition of the coach when you came through it? Answer – It was all right inside. All I saw was some glass knocked over the seats.

Q. Was there anything else broken in it? Answer – Not that I saw broken on the inside.

Q. What was your object in going through? Answer – We had to go through to get the names of the people who were hurt, and those on the train, and see the extent of the injuries, to report to the superintendent.

Q. Did you observe the condition of the car as you went through it? Answer – Not at the present time, I got the names of the passengers first and then examined the car.

Q. You did examine the car? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. State whether or not you found any wreckage inside of the car outside of the glass? Answer – I found nothing but the glass laying on the seats which had been broken out of the windows.

Q. Was there any part of the door or door frame broken? Answer – Not that I saw.

Q. What kind of car was it, wood or steel? Answer – A steel car.

Q. Did you see Mr. Sullivan? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. Where was he? Answer – Standing between the first two seats on the left hand side going south.

Q. Did you see the baby? Answer – I saw the baby, but I don’t remember who had the baby now; someone had the baby, but I don’t remember who it was.

Q. Was there any indication that the baby had been hurt? Answer – No, sir.

Q. What was the condition of your engine and the coaches that were attached to it before the accident? Answer – They were all good, so far as I know.

Q. There was nothing wrong with the engine or coaches in any way? Answer – Nothing so far as I know.

Q. Was that a modern steel car? Answer – Yes, sir, one of our steel coaches. It had been in service, I guess, about three years.

Q. Was there anything wrong with the track that you were running over? Answer – Not that I know of. Everything was all right, so far as I know, up to the present; I passed over that track twice a day.

CROSS EXAMINATION

Q. You say this was a steel car? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. The front door jambs were wood and the toilets inside are wooden structures, are they not? Answer – The door facing and frame was wood.

Q. The door jamb was wood? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. And there was a good deal of wood at both ends of the car? Answer – Not so much wood in that car; that is what we call a steel car.

Q. After the accident the car was sent to the shop and rebuilt, and it is running now on the road? Answer – Yes, sir.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Q. Doctor, where do you live? Answer – Manassas.

Q. What is your occupation? Answer – Physician and Surgeon.

Q. What length of time have you been practicing here at Manassas? Answer – Six or seven years.

Q. Does your practice carry you around through the county? Answer – Yes, I have practiced medicine all together nineteen years, but six years here.

Q. You moved from Richmond here? Answer – from Rome, Georgia, but I went from Richmond to Rome, Georgia.

Q. You graduated from what school? Answer – The University College of Medicine, Richmond.

Q. Do you know Mr. Sullivan, the plaintiff here? Answer – Yes, sir, I have seen him twice before.

Q. When did you first see him, when was it? A.- Either three or four days after the wreck up here occurred.

Q. Tell the jury what, if any, examination you made of Mr. Sullivan at that time? Answer – Yes, sir, I made a right thorough examination.

Q. Describe it to the jury. Answer – His left arm and shoulder were bandaged; I didn’t take the bandage down because Dr. Wine, with whom I saw him, said the shoulder had been dislocated and that he had reduced the dislocation and there was nothing else at all wrong with him. I didn’t find a scratch, or bump, or any other point on him that was even tender.

Q. Did you go over him for the purpose of examining whether he was tender or not? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. You fingered him and thumped him, is the way you did it? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. I suppose you thumped him? Answer – Not thumped him so much as felt him.

Q. Tell whether you made an examination of his head? Answer – Yes, sir, I examined his head and back of his neck.

Q. State what, if anything, you found the matter with the head and back of the neck? Answer – Nothing.

Q. Did you find any evidence of a recent blow to the back of his head? Answer – None whatever.

Q. State whether or not there was any swelling at the back of the head? Answer – None at all.

Q. State what, if anything, was wrong with his abdomen or stomach? Answer – there was nothing the matter with his abdomen; he was getting ready to go to Washington, which he did, and came down as far as Manassas on the same train with me, and he walked all right.

Q. What time of the day was it you made this examination? Answer – I went up there in the afternoon, I think it was. I went up on No. 15 and came back on 44; train 15 leaves here about 5:12 and arrives here at 6:45 that is, approximately, but I don’t know the exact minute.

Q. You saw Mr. Sullivan was on his way to Washington? Answer – Yes, sir. After we examined him he put his coat and hat on and came to the station and took the train to Washington.

Q. State what complaint he made to you at that time? Answer – He did say he had passed some blood from his bowls; I asked him where it was, and he said in the privy. Dr Wine went out and looked and came back and reported that there was no blood there.

Q. There was no blood there? Answer – There was no blood there.

Q. State whether or not he complained, at that time, about his head? Answer – No, sir, he did not. The only complaint that he had was his left shoulder.

Q. Now doctor, when was the next time you saw Mr. Sullivan? Answer – I saw him in November in Dr. Hooe’s office in Washington, with Dr. Lemon. It was in November, but I do not recall the date.

Q. The early part of November or the latter part? Answer – I will not say for sure about it except it was in November. I could tell by going back to my visiting list, but I don’t recall just the date.

Q. Now, will you tell us whether you made an examination of Mr. Sullivan at that time in Dr. Hooe’s office? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. Now, then, state the result of that examination? Answer – We found nothing wrong with him. He was in good plight, and was fairly plump. The muscles were all well developed, and there seemed to be no atrophy about the muscles, and the reflexes were all right, and we found absolutely nothing wrong with him so far as we could tell.

Q. State whether or not there was any bruised bump or contusion on his head at that time? Answer – None.

Q. Was there anything on his stomach, at that time, that indicated trouble? Answer – No, sir, nothing at all.

Q. Mr. Mackey: Who claimed that there was? This does not refute anything because nobody claimed

in November, nine months after the accident, he had anything wrong with his stomach or bump on his head.

Q. Do you remember when Mr. Sullivan was dressing and getting ready to go to Washington on your first examination, whether anybody helped him on with his coat? Answer – I think somebody helped him on with his coat. One arm was bandaged up against his chest in this way (illustrating), and I think someone helped him on with his coat.

Q. State whether or not there was anything abnormal about Mr. Sullivan’s appearance at the time you examined him in November? Answer – Nothing that I could discover.

Q. doctor, in your opinion, if Mr. Sullivan had received a blow in the stomach sufficient to cause emission of blood from his bowels, would such a blow have left some mark visible three or four days after the accident? Answer – Well, it might and it might not. A blow on the abdomen through the clothes sometimes leaves no bruise on the skin at all.

Q. Doctor, will you say whether, in all your practice, you have ever had a case of epilepsy that resulted from a blow on the head?

Mr. Mackey: He has not shown that he ever had a case of epilepsy which resulted from eating

strawberries.

Q. Have you ever had a case of epilepsy in your medical experience? Answer – a great many.

Q. I understand you to say a great many; is that your experience? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. Have you ever had one which resulted from a blow on the head? Answer – I can’t say I have although such things occur. In my own practice I have not seen one.

Q. And have you ever had, in your practice, any such disease to result from a blow to the body? Ans. No.

Q. I understand, of course, that such things are medical possibilities? Answer – Probably so.

Q. I am asking you about your own experience? Answer – In my own experience I have never had one to result from a blow on the head or body either one.

CROSS EXAMINATION

Q. Did you ever hear of an epileptic having his skull trephined ? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. That is, putting a silver or gold plate in the skull to prevent pressure on the brain? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. And in such case is epilepsy due to a blow? Answer – From a fracture of the skull, or depression.

Q. So, if a child dropped on the floor or out of its highchair and got a depression of the skull it might be an epileptic the balance of its life? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know Dr. Tom A. Williams, by reputation, as a neurologist? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. He is a very high authority, is he not? Answer – I think he stands very well.

Q. A member of the National Association for the study of epilepsy? Answer – I think so, But I am not sure about it.

Q. You have read about him in medical journals? Answer – I have read a number of papers he has written.

Q. Dr. Williams says that a blow sufficient to dislocate a shoulder might by what is called contrecoup – a contrary cut, literally, that means – cause sufficient shock to the brain to cause epilepsy; is not that so? Answer – I can’t say whether it is so or not, because I haven’t seen such a case and haven’t heard such a proposition advanced before.

Q. You do not question the fact that a severe blow on any part of the body might transmit the shock, either mechanically or through reflex action, to the brain? Answer – There is only one kind of blow I could imagine would do that, and that would be a man falling and landing on his feet. He might fracture the base of the skull; I have seen one such case.

Q. And epilepsy might result from that? Ans. – Possibly. The only case I have seen there was no epilepsy.

Q. Now, doctor, there are a great many injuries to the brain that do not cause epilepsy? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. A great many injuries to the brain which would cause insanity and not epilepsy, isn’t that so. Answer – Probable so.

Q. Insanity is a disease of a nerve center in the brain, isn’t it? Answer – It is certainly a disease of the brain cell.

Q. How many supreme nerve centers are there in the brain? Answer – I couldn’t tell you, I don’t know.

Q. An injury to anyone of those centers might cause insanity; is that right? Answer – I don’t know that any one might, but a number might.

Q. An injury which would cause insanity might cause epilepsy? Answer – That might be true, but I want to say that I am not an expert on the brain or insanity either, or neurology. Those things I know but little about.

Q. Now, doctor, a very slight blow on the head, or a jar to the head might cause a hemorrhage, might it not, in the brain? Answer – Not a very slight one; the brain is pretty well protected by the skull, and the skull is a hard casing to protect the brain.

Q. Now, doctor, we will take your case of a man who lands heavily on his feet, and epilepsy results as a possibility. Landing on the feet might cause a hemorrhage in the brain? Answer – It might.

Q. And as the result of that hemorrhage in the brain epilepsy might follow? Answer – It would be pressure on the brain, but whether it would be epileptic in form or some other I don’t know.

Q. It might take the form of paralysis of the motor or censory nerve, or of epilepsy? Answer – It might, but I have never seen one.

Q. When you examined Mr. Sullivan in November, nine months about, after this injury, if he had been an epileptic you couldn’t tell that, could you? Answer – Not unless I had seen him have a fit.

Q. So a man like Dr. Bacon, who had seen him in a fit, would know more about him being an epileptic than a man who had not? Answer – Yes.

Q. And a layman who saw him in a fit would know more about his having fits than a doctor who had not seen him, whether the fit was epileptic? Answer – Yes, I think he would if he had an epileptic fit. He could tell a convulsion when he saw it whether it was epileptic or otherwise.

Q. So you were in this position: Owing to the infirmity of medical science you could not tell, by examining Mr. Sullivan in November, 1915, whether he was an epileptic or not. That isn’t your fault, but it is the fault of science, isn’t it? Answer – I couldn’t tell whether he had epilepsy or not, there was nothing to tell it. A confirmed epileptic has peculiarities which you will notice, but I didn’t notice any.

Q. Some cases of epilepsy are mysterious? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. And they call it “falling sickness?” Answer – That is one name for it.

Q. Is there anything more mysterious than epilepsy? Answer – I don’t know; there are some forms of insanity very obscure and very mysterious. There are some cases of epilepsy for which there is no explanation at all, what the older writers call idiopathic epilepsy that we don’t know any cause for.

Q. Your first examination was three or four days after the wreck? Answer – Yes, sir, as well as I recollect it was three or four days.

Q. You found his shoulder bandaged; had you any reason to think that his shoulder had not been dislocated? Answer – No, sir.

Mr. Mackey: Doctor, I am very much obliged; you have been very fair.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

Q. Assuming that a man has had epileptic fits every three to five days for a period of more than a year, would you say there would be some evidence of mental degeneration, or some symptom that might be noticed?

when he saw him.

more than a year, would your opinion be that there would be evidence of mental degeneration or some symptom which he would notice?

(Objection, overruled, exception by plaintiff)

Q. Assuming a man has had epileptic fits at intervals of from three to five days for a period of more than one year, in your opinion would there be evidence of mental degeneration or some peculiarity apparent? Answer – I think there would.

Q. Now, what would your answer be to that question assuming a patient to have had these convulsions every three to five days for a period of say nine months? Answer – I think there would be some evidence of it.

Q. Now, the plaintiff is in court. Do you see any change in his condition, physically, from looking at him now as compared with November 5^th , when you last examined him? Answer – No. He is a little more fleshy, is all the difference I note. His face is fuller.

Q. You do not see any evidence of mental degeneration? Answer – No, sir, not from his appearance.

Q. You do not see any evidence that would lead you to believe that he had epilepsy from looking at him. Answer – No, sir.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Mackey:

Q. Could you diagnose a case of obscure brain disease by looking at a man’s face? Answer – No, sir.

Q. Do you claim by looking at Mr. Sullivan in this court room that you can determine whether he is an epileptic or not? Answer – No; I mean that constantly recurring epilepsy leaves some trace.

Q. What trace would you expect to find in a man subject to epilepsy by looking at him at a distance of six feet, without questioning him, without making any physical examination of him, or without any blood test or test from his spinal cord, or tests from his reflexes, how would you determine by looking at him from a distance of six feet that he was not an epileptic? Answer – Confirmed epileptics have a peculiar expression in the face; that would be the only way I could tell. It is a thing you can’t describe; you have to see it and recognize it, but I don’t see it in him. That is the only reason I have for saying it.

Q. Would that lead you to believe that it might not show on his face hereafter? Answer – That is a thing time would have to determine; I don’t know whether it would or not.

Q. If you could look into a man’s face and determine he was an epileptic, it would be one of the easiest thing to diagnose that you know of? Answer – Yes, sir.

Q. Easier than a pain in the stomach? Answer – Yes, because he would have to tell you, but there is this peculiarity in the face which you could notice.

Q. If he told you he had an epileptic spasm at five o’clock this morning, what would you say about his face then? Answer – I don’t know what I would say; if I had seen him I would say he had it.

Q. Would you conclude by looking at his face that he did not have an epileptic spasm at five o’clock this morning? Answer – No, sir.

Q. Could you decide, according to your own conscience and belief, by looking at his face, that he did not fall down in a corn field in an epileptic spasm three or four days ago? Answer – No.

Q. So what you say you are willing to say by looking at this man’s face is that he has been lying and all his witnesses? Answer – No, I don’t mean to say that, but I say that he has no appearance to me as having epilepsy.

Q. How long have you been employed by this railroad? Answer – As surgeon for the railroad company?

Q. Yes. Answer – About sixteen years.

Q. So you were surgeon for the Southern before you came up here? Answer – Yes, sir, at Richmond.

Q. And you have testified for the railroad in a great many cases? Answer – In only one case, and I reckon I have treated 1500 cases.

Q. Only one case has come to trial? Answer – Only one case came to trial out of all of them, and in that case a demurrer was sustained and the case thrown out of court.