Begin interview

BEGIN INTERVIEW

GAINES: The 1890s were a period of deteriorating--deteriorating racial relations. One historian has called the 1890s the nadir or the low point in American history for African-Americans. It was a time in which the system of legal segregation was solidifying throughout the South and legal segregation mandating the absolute separation of blacks and whites in all spheres of public and private life was coming in the wake of the Populist movement and interracial movement of working class politics in which blacks and whites were united in political challenges to the hegemony of the planter class and political and economic elites in the South. In the North racism was the stuff of the popular culture. The 1890s saw a revival of minstrelsy.

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GAINES: Legal segregation in the 1890s was becoming, uh, a pervasive factor throughout the South. Lynching was a way to intimidate African-Americans and drive them from the political process. There was a tremendous amount of political violence in the 1890s. And lynching along with, uh, pseudo-legal means enabled the disfranchisement of African-Americans. Black Americans were routed from the political process in the South through legal and extra-legal means. And violence was crucial to that process. In the North racism was pervasive and manifested in the popular culture of minstrelsy which was enjoying a riv--revival in the 1890s. Minstrelsy mocked the aspirations of blacks to equal ri--equal rights, equal status. Minstrelsy demeaned the aspirations of blacks for equality and in the white imagination, in the popular white imagination, claimed that what African-Americans wanted was not equal rights and full citizenship but they wanted to be white. And so you saw in the "Coon Song" phenomenon of the time the dissemination.

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GAINES: With "Coon Songs" white Americans could actually perform minstrelsy, perform minstrel shows in their own parlors and reinforce those images of African-Americans' fundamental moral and intellectual differences and flatter their own expectations of, you know, white superiority.

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GAINES: When McKinley called for volunteers for the war the black response was quite divided, quite ambivalent. There were many African-Americans, predominantly in the Republican party and in the Republican-sponsored black press, who felt that military service would actually improve the status of blacks, rehabilitate the image of black men in the eyes of white society and that blacks would receive recognition of their patriot service and thus be granted full citizenship. But of course the background for the war was this rising tide of racism and racial violence, particularly lynching throughout the South. And so many African-Americans opposed black participation in the war, believing that the United States, the federal government, should do more to protect black rights at home and that African-Americans would be naive if not foolish to participate in a war abroad when their rights were being trampled upon at home.

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GAINES: This view that the war would enfranchise African-Americans was ironic in light of the fact that many of the arguments for expansion were racist arguments, were really sort of attempts to export white supremacy abroad. There were arguments that the Cubans and the Filipinos were unfit for self-government by virtue of their non-white status. And interestingly enough those sorts of claims, justifications of the unworthiness of Cubans and Filipinos for self-government and citizenship echoed the very same kinds of statements that were made to support the disfranchisement of African-Americans throughout the South.

INT: If you can talk about when the soldiers first converged upon (Inaudible) what sort of--if you'd sort of paint the scene (Inaudible) African-Americans first encountered when they (Inaudible) down there. And I read once--I'm not even sure--it could have been in your article--that they were happy that (Inaudible Portion)

GAINES: Yeah. Yeah. That's certainly the case.

INT: So that--make that like a separate part of the answer. Because that's obviously a separate part of the story.

GAINES: If you can imagine within a Jim Crow social order predicated on the subordination of blacks the appearance of masses of black soldiers in uniform, this was a direct challenge and a direct threat to the white South's desire for white supremacy. The black soldiers in Tampa and throughout the South represented the possibility of the very thing that they--they wished to prevent: social equality. This was something that was intolerable for many. And so many white citizens in Tampa took it upon themselves to try to reassert, you know, the normative racial relationship in their mind. They tried to humiliate, accost, intimidate black soldiers quite frequently. And so there were numerous altercations, some of them quite violent, in Tampa. After all Tampa was the sort of final point of departure for soldiers including obviously many of the black soldiers who served in the war.

GAINES: If racist whites were determined to try to restore the color line that was being transgressed by black soldiers, many of the black soldiers were also determined to oppose those expressions of racism. So there were many altercations. In one instance, a white barber in a drugstore cursed black soldiers and pulled his gun on them. It was a suicidal action, for black soldiers fired on him and killed him. And one black soldier reported that the treatment of the black soldiers in the local stores throughout Tampa had improved noticeably as many of the storekeepers gave them courteous service. But there were many instances of this sort of conflict. Black soldiers perhaps felt empowered perhaps more than most other blacks in the South to resist the--the customs of Jim Crow that demanded black deference, that demanded that African-Americans defer to expectations of white superiority, that they yield the way on sidewalks and put up with second class treatment in the public sphere. African-American soldiers refused to do this and perhaps for this reason they were heroes. They were seen as heroes by many blacks throughout the South.

GAINES: African-Americans made a crucial contribution during the--the storming of San Juan Hill. Their contribution was not recognized in the mainstream white dominated press. But within the black press and within soldier's accounts you learned that black soldiers charge was actually crucial in rescuing the Rough Riders, Teddy Roosevelt's celebrated Rough Riders who had been pinned down on the hill by enemy sniper fire. And so this heroic charge--and really the--the, uh,--the--the black soldiers' officers had been cut down. So the charge was led by non-commissioned officers. This was widely celebrated within the black press and by the soldiers. And certainly Theodore Roosevelt's account of that crucial battle minimized the contribution of black soldiers.

GAINES: After the war Roosevelt published his account of what happened. And it was a very flattering account, flattering for--for Roosevelt. Roosevelt was able to ride the success of the U.S. in the war, the--the, uh,--the brief conclusion of hostilities with very few combat casualties. He was able to ride that success for his own political advancement. And so he made a point of saying that he had to pull a gun on several black soldiers who were breaking ranks and trying to desert in the heat of combat. Roosevelt's portrayal of these black soldiers was certainly calculated to fit within widespread white expectations of, you know, sort of a--a degraded image of black masculinity, not unlike that propagated within minstrelsy. And Roosevelt was a master at self-promotion. He, I think, recognized the power of mass circulation journalism and he was able to exploit that in order to further his political career. And so the image of the Rough Riders and his contribution in the war sounded very popular themes of sectional reconciliation, you know, the end of hostilities between the North and South. And in order to do that Roosevelt pandered to racism in a very blatant way.

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INT: Was there any particular--I'm not sure--was there any particular African-American response specifically in the press to his article at all?

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GAINES: African-Americans, particularly black soldiers, were outraged at Roosevelt's attempt to impugn the courage of black soldiers. Many felt that this was an outright betrayal in light of the role of black soldiers in saving the necks of many of the Rough Riders. So there were many indignant letters from black soldiers from the field seeking to refute Roosevelt's account. Of course it was their word against Roosevelt's. And Roosevelt certainly had the ear of the wider culture in a way that the black soldiers, you know, writing from the black press never could. I--I would add that one of the Rough Riders, a man named Frank Knox who later rose to become Secretary of War during World War I, openly praised the contribution of the Rough Riders--of the--let me try that again--(Laughs) openly praised the contribution of black soldiers. Knox testified to their heroism and the fact that the Rough Riders would have been in quite a predicament if not for their intervention.

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GAINES: Quite understandably the black soldiers expected recognition of their patriotic service and heroism under fire. And those expectations were frustrated not only in terms of a lack of recognition throughout mainstream culture with the exception of, you know, sort of brief moments of--of visibility, brief and fleeting moments. Ultimately blacks' expectations of officers, commissioned officers and promotion for their contributions were--were actually frustrated as well.

INT: Okay. Now, how did that--in terms of the--I'm sorry, in terms of African-American expectations before the war how did that influence--you know, did that (Inaudible) the rewards play into that at all? And also did general racial issues change as a result of (Inaudible)

GAINES: The aftermath of the war dealt a cruel blow to expectations that black service would improve the condition of African-Americans generally. And there was an epidemic of anti-black violence in the South. Uh, even during the war, 1898 and--and into 1899 there were numerous lynchings. In fact, after half a dozen blacks were lynched in Georgia, the governor of--of that state attributed the violence to the presence of black soldiers. That this had somehow inflamed white hostility. Booker T. Washington in a rare moment of protest actually stated at--at one of the celebrations, post-war celebrations, that the soldiers had demonstrated the loyalty of African-Americans. And so this epidemic of racism and racial violence showed that racism was a cancer upon the American body politic that needed to be challenge. And Washington's rare moment of protest was greeted by outrage from the white South.

GAINES: It was very difficult for African-Americans to feel as idealistic about the war in the Philippines as some of them might have felt about the war in Cuba. Um, African-Americans were dealing with a rise of racial violence, of anti-black violence. And this was the background for the Filipino war. It was abundantly clear for many that the--the war in Cuba had not improved the status and may--and the presence of black soldiers may have even exacerbated anti-black hostility and violence. And African-Americans in the field in the Philippines were also confronting the overt racism of the war effort. They were confronting the fact that within the segregated army their white comrades in arms saw the Filipinos as people of color. They frequently referred to the Filipinos as niggers. And sometimes in quite casual conversation. The war in the Philippines was a war of attrition with many atrocities involving many non-combatant civilian casualties. And many white soldiers justified the slaughter of Filipinos on racial grounds, that, uh,--that these people were less than human and that this was fair treatment for them. So the overt racism in the war certainly made the position of African-Americans in the Philippines a very painful one.

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GAINES: Racial antagonism within the army reflected that of the broader society. And many black soldiers clashed with their white superiors. Certainly in the Philippines. And one of those soldiers was a man named David Fagen who is remembered as one of a number of American soldiers who defected and joined the cause of the Filipinos, actually fought on the side of the Filipino insurrectionists who under Aguinaldo were fighting for Filipino independence. Fagen was a very interesting character. Not much is known about him. But he was probably the most notorious of those Americans who joined the Filipino cause. And he led many campaigns against American soldiers and was evidently quite an effective commander. Fagen is mentioned in several New York Times dispatches on the war as a general. So you--you see that he was unofficially elevated in rank to a general. Fagen had initially been a corporal. And Fagen was hotly pursued by the commander of U.S. forces in the Philippines, General Funston, who was just obsessed with capturing him.

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INT: Do you know the story of what actually happened to him?

GAINES: Yeah. It's--it's very murky. Um, supposedly a Filipino presented Funston with what he claimed to be the head of Fagen.

INT: Yeah. Can you tell us about--about that?

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GAINES: Supposedly Funston was presented the head of David Fagen by a Filipino who had claimed that he had captured and killed Fagen. And of course Funston broadcast this widely, said that the--the evil nemesis, David Fagen, had been captured and killed. But there's some dispute as to whether or not this was--was actually Fagen. And so I think historians debate this question of what became of--of Fagen. And I think it's certainly--the experience of Fagen in the war as with the experience of all the other African-American and white soldiers who deserted and joined the Filipino cause is certainly a matter for further investigation.

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GAINES: The Spanish American War and then later the war to subdue the Filipino movement for independence accomplished little in the way of improving conditions for African-Americans. The trend of disfranchisement of removing black men from the polls and political office throughout the South continued unabated. And finally with the Atlanta Race Riot in 1906 African-Americans were effectively disfranchised in that state. So those who believed that the war would, uh, rehabilitate the image of blacks and confer citizenship were sadly mistaken. Within the African-American community, however, the war did, and black service and heroic, uh, contributions within the war certainly provided a boost of morale within black communities. And black soldiers became symbols of empowerment, even self-defense. And in the long run I think that that quite distinct significance of the black soldier, even these wars of expansion, for all their contradictions of service within a segregated army, service within a racist project of expansion, for all those contradictions I think African-Americans thrilled to the heroism symbolized by black soldiers.

INT: The African-American response in terms of the anti-Imperialist/Imperialist debate. You know, regarding the (Inaudible) taking of the Philippines and taking Cuba. I know--I know it was pretty strongly represented in the black press. If you could just talk about--well, I'm not even sure if there were two schools of thought or there was just one predominant.

GAINES: If African-American opinion was divided and--and ambivalent about the Spanish American War, the war in Cuba, uh, African-Americans in the press as well as black leadership were very much opposed to the war in the Philippines. They were, I think, part of a--of a broader culture of anti-imperialism at that time. And of course the--the violence throughout the South during the period of the war contributed to this. The, uh,--the violation of--of black citizenship, the utter disregard throughout the South for the 14th Amendment black--the equal rights of African-Americans certainly contributed to that. But also the, uh,--the racist nature of the war in the Philippines certainly lent a stigma to that war that many African-Americans, even the more patriotic African-Americans, couldn't support wholeheartedly.