Host: Isn't that true of really almost any totally devoted religious follower? Bob

The problem is when you see people taking such a toll upon themselves, because the nature of their belief is such that when anything goes right in their lives, well, that's the grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. When anything goes wrong, well, that's themselves. That's their minds. So they are kind of in a bind, where anything that's beneficial they have to credit to the guru, and anything that's bad, well, they know that they're just not trying hard enough. So a lot of them have a great deal of difficulty. They are very hard put-upon.

A lot of the professional people that you were mentioning before had to give up their professions, simply because part of their calling now is that they must attend these festivals that the guru has all the time. In fact, he's having one here in Denver in about two weeks' time. They have to travel all over the country and to other parts of the world to attend these on average of every three or four months. Consequently, they can't hold a job. They can't maintain a profession. They get very impoverished as a result of this. They have to not only pay to get into these festivals, but they are also expected to make a cash contribution to the guru, when they go through the ritual of kissing his feet.

So these kinds of beliefs do take a toll on the people, even though they may feel that they are getting something from it. It's very captivating, and there is a sinister element to it that is hidden from people.

So he had had a lot of practice, and it's a kind of a mass consciousness phenomenon that takes place. In a crowd, people are receptive to images that they might not really be receptive to in a conversation one-on-one; at least, they are impacted in a way by those images. He used to tell his story to a receptive crowd of eager seekers who wanted more insight into their own spiritual practice.

He was saying the kind of things that you could relate to, and there was a kind of reaction that took place between the crowd and him. He was portrayed in such a way that he was the master. He was the one who was sitting on the throne up on the stage.

Caller #4: So what you are saying is that every thirteen year old boy who would have that type of training and background could be able to perform that way.

Bob: I'm not saying that everyone would be able to. Obviously, you would have to have certain aptitude for it.

Caller #4: And charisma.

Bob: Yes. Charisma is the concept we are talking about. In fact, it's not only the capacity on the part of the individual to speak with absolute authority, but it must also be reciprocated by the crowd. The crowd must be receptive to it.

For example, I have been with this same person in lots of situations where he would not seem significant. You wouldn't notice him. In fact, for the most part, he had a very difficult time with just getting people's attention or handling normal day-to-day interaction with people. When he was out on the stage on that throne, speaking into the microphone and being amplified, he had the charisma.

That same thing is true in Christianity, or the Divine Light Mission, or in various times in Jewish history when there have been Jewish Messiahs that have popped up. They developed a tremendous following; there were numbers of them. The same thing is true in Islam and Hinduism. You have to recognise that aspect of all religious philosophy.

They tend to rationalise everything that he does. I lived with him and I saw him as he actually is, not as he is staged to be. In doing that, I saw that he isn't what he purports himself to be. To that extent, I don't even think that he is sincerely wrong, I think that he is deliberately deceiving people.

There will be a time in the future when the guru will no longer be around, and when the Bob Mishlers will no longer be around. At that point, what will the followers of the guru believe, and how big will it become?

If you believe that he is your Lord, then you become his willing slave. You completely dedicate your life to him. In the course of serving him, of dedicating your life to him, you provide his means of support and income. That's really what's at the core of it. It's sad, because there's no provision being made for these people.

There are so many of them in his ashrams. That word is roughly equivalent to the English word 'monastery'. He has a number of people living in them in a state of poverty, chastity and obedience. These people give all of their fruit of their labour to him.

Some of them are probably under the impression that he is using it to spread his knowledge, to spread the practice of meditation and the means of inner peace to the people of the world. In fact, that's really not what happens. Most of the money just goes to support him in his lifestyle.

As far as the brainwashing aspect, well, it is similar to brainwashing in the sense that you have a great deal of social pressure. Usually, people that do get involved, and I would guess that this was the same for you, get involved because of other people.

You're always in a situation where there are a lot more people around who believe then there are people who don't. Just the sheer number of people around you who believe, all talking about how they thought the same things that you thought, they had all the same doubts, etc, etc, and continuing to testify that now they know, now they have the truth...

It's all set up that you really must go along with it if you want to continue to have that sort of social interaction with that group of people. As far as being an aspirant; even that condition makes you vulnerable to the pressures to conform, because you're in a situation where you're seeking social approval.

The biggest approval of all is being selected as being ready to be initiated into the 'perfect knowledge'. Of course, nowadays, I guess that's probably why you had to leave. You have to accept him as God before they initiate you. You have to essentially take the whole religion and accept it before you have even got any inkling of what the experience that they are talking about is.

That's just the reverse of the way is started. In the beginning days, he used to say: 'You'd be a fool if you accepted anything that anybody says about me before you experience this knowledge'. Of course, now, they won't even initiate you until you accept this.

Caller #6: Did you actually experience the knowledge while you were involved in this and living with him? Did you really have good experiences from that? Did you really feel happier in you life? Or did it just get you more confused until you finally decided that it wasn't for you?

Bob: I think meditation is something that could be of value to anyone who could learn these relatively simple practices to be able to focus their concentration inward and enhance their own consciousness in that manner. I still feel there is a value in that.

But the way that it is being taught in the Divine Light Mission now, this whole way of life... it's a whole religious dogma that goes along with it. I think that's very detrimental. In fact, meditation - even the way they encourage people to practice it - can be detrimental. They encourage people to use meditation to suppress their minds, their questioning, their doubting.

This to me is something that is not necessary to attain peace. There is a certain amount of uncertainty that exists in the world, and you don't have to eliminate that in order to have peace. To me, this a distortion of the Yogic practices that were essentially at the core of what was being taught originally.

It's being done deliberately now, because what they want people to do is find fulfilment in the belief that they are saved by accepting Guru Maharaj Ji as their Lord. Then, the only purpose in their life is to serve him. That means just working at your job for two or three months at a time, and then going to his festivals.

He wants people to continue working because it's by them coming to the festivals, paying their admissions and giving their donations when they're kissing his feet that he makes his money. He doesn't have any other income. He lives a very, very extravagant lifestyle.

As far as the phenomenon taking place with Khomeini and certainly in our social movement, I don't even think you have to limit it to religious figures. It can also happen with political figures, or any case where an ideology becomes a major component in assembling a mass of people who then look to one person to take their lead from. It certainly happened with Hitler. I'd say there were a lot of similarities.

I think one way to look at it is to view the Divine Light Mission as a sub-culture. It has its own perspective on reality. People are in fact finally assimilated into that sub-cultural group. That accounts for the similarity you see in them.

How Maharaji was selected to succeed his father

He indicated that it was to be his younger son who was going to succeed him and become the Guru Maharaj Ji. What actually happened was that when the guru died, there were some very dubious circumstances surrounding his death, but that's another story as well.

His mother, the former guru's wife, who was known as Mataji and was part of the so-called Holy Family before they split apart, wanted to ascend the throne herself. At the father's funeral, at which time the new guru was supposed to be proclaimed, she was in a meeting with the governing body and some of the very influential devotees - the Mahatmas - arguing this point view.

She had one Mahatma who was very influential arguing on her behalf. Most of the governing body was resisting this, because they were saying that it flaunted the Hindu tradition that the 'perfect master' must in fact be a man. They couldn't go over to a 'holy mother' kind of belief structure when all along they had been operating in this 'perfect master' one.

While this was going on, some other younger and not quite so influential but nonetheless aggressive Mahatmas had a much closer relationship with the younger son. The one who was most instrumental was a Mahatma known as Mahatma Sampuranand. They seized upon the opportunity of absence while this argument was going on behind closed doors in another part of the Ashram.

They put the youngest child who was eight years old at the time - the Guru Maharaj Ji that we're talking about tonight - on the throne and crowned him. He was already accepted as the guru by the devotees by the time that they had finally come to an agreement in this other meeting that was taking place.

In this meeting, they had decided to put the eldest son on the throne, because that was in line with Hindu tradition that the eldest son always inherits from the father. This eldest son would then be under the control of the mother anyway, as he was about thirteen or fourteen at the time. The mother finally agreed to that.

When they came out, they were really shocked to find that the youngest son was already sitting on the throne, wearing the crown and already accepted by the devotees. So they accepted this, but nonetheless there was the enmity that existed between the eldest son, who felt that his inheritance was robbed, and the younger son.

That dynamic eventually exploded in 1974. The mother then, at that point, when the youngest son was really defying her authority, said she'd back the eldest son now. But it was a bit late by that point.