Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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> > > Thanks, > > Jon
> > > > From: "Mitchell K." > > > Reply-To: > > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST) > > To: > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions: > Abuse vs. Dependence > > (Alcoholism) > >
> > PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of > > defining guideline for alcoholism one must > remember > > the following: The DSM does state that a person > can > > remain in total remission from alcohol dependence > and > > continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit > the > > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence. > > Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does > not
> > define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the > > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous > and > > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent. > > > > From: Mitchell K. > > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3053. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Russ, In some photos of the Green Pond residence I can tell you that it is a one story cottage and that in the early 90's it was painted white with dark green trim. I was told by the photographer that it is in a gated community and difficult to access without knowing someone who lives there. As a first avenue of approach attending a meeting in Newfoundland or the closest town you can find and stating your objective would be a good approach. Failing that you could approach the homeowner's association but I imagine they've been approached before. Another method would be to go to the County seat and look in the records book under Chrystal. This would probably be the owner's surname. It was Horace's uncle who I believe first name was Frank.
interest to me. -merton Another met - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rob > > 182 Clinton St > Brooklyn heights, NY > > _______________________ > > In response to Message 3032 > > From: "Russ S" > Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 > Subject: Green Pond, NJ > > Dear History Lovers, > > I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. > > I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? > > Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Horace C loaned them his summer cottage or bungalow. It got too cold that fall and they moved on.
"Lois Remembers" 125 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3055. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow). It got too cold that fall and they moved on. "Pass it On" 215 ff "Lois Remembers" 125 It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 2:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Russ asked: "I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before
they moved to Stepping Stones" Dear Russ, Bill and Lois had to vacate there lovely home at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn Hts. in April of 1939. Between then and moving into the Bedford Hills residence they lived at nearly 50 places (P. 214 - Pass It On), including the 24th Street Clubhouse. But at last, in 1941, while living with friends in Chappaqua, NY, just north of the city, they were offered, and accepted, the great deal on the Bedford Hills house (Page 259 of "Pass It On" ).
understated, "we were invited out to dinner a lot!" The NJ Area Archives presented a great display at the Toronto International Convention last year - this would be a great source of information for you.
Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3057. . . . . . . . . . . . alcohol content grapevine article From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII About Alcoholism - Alcoholism Information, Research, and Treatment What's Not Cooking? Volume 47 Issue 3 August 1990
does
not mean that the Grapevine endorses or approves them; they are offered solely
for your information. Don't blame Julia Child for leading you astray: We all were convinced that the
alcohol in the sherry she so liberally added to dishes would cook away, with only the wine's flavor left behind. But now, it turns out, we can't have our brandy and eat it too, because alcohol, as recent research reveals, has tremendous staying power. At the request of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, food scientist Evelyn A. Augustin of Washington State University in Pullman, along with her husband, Jorg A. Augustin of the Food Research Center at the University of Idaho in Moscow, recently tested six recipes to determine the fate of the alcohol called for. Their results, reported at the latest annual meeting of the American Dietetic
Association, were a big surprise to everyone. They found that the burgundy in pot roast Milano, for example, doesn't completely disappear even after two and a half hours of simmering on the stove; that a dish of scalloped oysters, baked at 375 degrees for 25 minutes, retains 45 percent of the alcohol in the dry sherry used; that Grand Marnier sauce, which is removed from the heat when the called-for liqueur is added, gets hot enough to lose only 15 percent of its alcohol.
brandy in the cherries jubilee. The recipe calls for dark sweet cherries to be mixed with corn-starch and heated in a chafing dish to thicken. One quarter of a cup of brandy is then ignited in a separate pan and poured over the cherries. But even this intense flaming process, the Augustins discovered, burned off no more than 25 percent of the alcohol. They tested the recipe several times, and on each try the flame died, while 75 percent of the alcohol survived. Lears Don't listen to the people in AA; Listen to the AA in people. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3058. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: whanny@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 10:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anybody know if Henrietta Seiberling's children were present when Bill W and
Dr Bob met for the first time? I've heard Bob Smith Jr say many times that he was the last person living who
was present on that day, but I thought that Henrietta had a couple of small children. Thanks, Whanny
From the moderator: I heard Henrietta Seiberling's son speak at the National Archives Workshop at Akron, Ohio, shortly before his death. Gail LaC., who started that series of excellent annual workshops, could tell us the exact date. Henrietta's son was a U.S. Representative, who went to Tip O'Neill and enlisted
his aid in getting approval from the Russians (via backdoor unofficial channels) for AA people to come over and start the first AA groups in the Soviet Union.
That was an important part of the prehistory of the establishment of AA in Russia, which is not usually known. Dr. Bob's son Smitty, a really fine man, lived quite a few years longer than Henrietta's son. I am sure that at the time you heard him say he was the last survivor that this was in fact the case. But I would be interested in anything the members of the group know about Henrietta's children, because my only knowledge comes from hearing her son speak that one time. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Second Tradition (long and short)
From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 6:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2. ----- Original Message ----- From: HJFree Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)
form?
++++Message 3060. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 5:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA. I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met. I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have
been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long Island.
Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3061. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The correct name is Horace Chrystal. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3062. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 7:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 23:21 1/13/2006 , ny-aa@att.net wrote: //The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois
lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money
to pay for a moving van .... Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them
his summer cottage .... It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived
this long.// Not so quick, here. I would note that my family's camp on Lake Memphremagog in Northern Vermont was bought by my grandfather when my mother, born in 1913, was a pre-schooler, and I can tell you it is still in excellent shape as are many of the neighboring cottages of similar vintage. One has to take care of them, but they are still very livable. Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 11:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My family vacationed at Green Pond for generations, usually for weeks in the summer, and from what a pre-teenager can remember, I recall that our various rented cottages (bungalows) were built in the earliest quarter of the twentieth century. Old stoves, attic fans, all wooden bungalows, etc. Green Pond is about
a mile long, shaped like a rectangle, with a large Lodge-plus-Hotel at one end (that building should still be standing, too, unless it burnt down since 1960...). Most all of the cottages had no garages, just a driveway between them for cars. Its US Post Office looked like something out of the wild west (plenty of fodder for kids games), a small, single-room building that still had a horse hitch in front of it. There were many single-lot homes at the water's edge around the lake's perimeter, and most likely are now part of the 'gated' community, of course with updated homes. The Lodge was a set of beautiful white Adirondack-style of buildings (think of green painted Adirondack chairs around a long, curved veranda) but I also remember it as unoccupied during the summers my family rented cottages there.
Other relatives had stayed at the Lodge in earlier times. It was one site of many adventures that a 4 to 7-year old and his brothers could create...and Green Pond was where my swimming got better and I grew to love bodies of water. Probably foreshadowed my later love of bodies of distilled spirits! If a summer cottage that Horace provided Lois and Bill that 1939 summer was around the same location on Green Pond, "bungalow" is a fitting description of something that my parents rented 15 years later. rick t.
From: ny-aa@att.net To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Green Pond, NJ The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow). It got too cold that fall and they moved on. "Pass it On" 215 ff "Lois Remembers" 125 It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.
Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 12:02:00 AM
using
clinical works to back up their arguments. Taking out of context, one can use
sentences from just about any form of literature to make it appear that the entire volume says something quite the opposite of what is intended. Many people do the same thing with the Big Book . . . clinicians, some of which were responsible for writing the DSM-IV-TR, about this question and they were incredulous that any accredited clinician would make such a claim.
Raleigh
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:23:20 -0800 (PST) > To: > Subject: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) > > Sorry it took so long to reply.... > Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV - > TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page # > is the same): (DSM IV TR web link = > http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm > >
> at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no > CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met > (emphasis added) > > Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if > none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been > met at any time during the period of 12 months or > longer (emphasis added) > > The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not > drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria > for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA > is not about abstinence as a criteria. > > > > Mitchell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3065. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Seiberling's demise is news to me (the NE Ohio Area Archivist) and, I think, to him. He spoke at the Sept. 25-27, 1998 Third Annual Nat'l AA Archives Workshop and was very much alive in April 2002 when he received an award from the Nat'l Park System. This copyright 2005 article speaks of him in the present tense:
Cursory Googleing shows nothing more recent and I am sure his demise would. So rumors of his demise would seem to be greatly exaggerated ___________________________ Bob, Profuse apologies from the moderator for passing along some very inaccurate information. I am glad, because I heard him speak in 1998, and he is a really fine man, whom I greatly admire. At least you and Mel B. caught my goof before John read it! As you said in your
Mark Twain quote in your last line, it would have been like the famous case where Mark Twain (still very much alive) was amazed to read his own obituary in a newspaper. My wife Sue once said to me, "The problem with you, Glenn, is that you ARE right 93% of the time." I responded to her by saying, "No, the problem with me is the other 7% of the time, where I end up being the last person to figure it out."
remember the 7% rule at all times when you're listening to me talk. Once more
it has been proved to be a valuable warning indeed (grin). Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3066. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Long Form of Second Tradition From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 3:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would be very interested to know where the recent contributor gained the information that "Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern" is in the original (long) form of the Second Tradition, as well as the original (long) form of the Ninth. On the Ninth there is no doubt, but I really would like to see the evidence on the Second. In the April 1946 Grapevine ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition") the passage is not there. In "Traditions Stressed in Memphis Talk" (October 1947 Grapevine) it is not there. In "Tradition Two" (January 1948 Grapevine) it is not there. In the form in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1958), which actually dates from (roughly) 1950, it is not there. I have found no evidence for its inclusion in Two until the so-called short form. In all these cases mentioned (except of course for the write-up specifically on Tradition Two), the phrase is in Tradition Nine, as we know. I am hoping this contribution was not merely a guess. -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3067. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Second Tradition (long and short) - (and addenda) Download 13.83 Mb. Share with your friends:
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