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Host: Would it be fair to say that you became a follower of his? Bob
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Host: Would it be fair to say that you became a follower of his? Bob: Yes, it would be, because in fact he was the leader, and in order to assist him in any way, you had to be a follower. First US premies selected for initiation Host: All right. Initially, people were coming to him to receive this knowledge. I understood that they received it in a blinding flash of light, that there were allegations to this effect Bob: Well, like I said, you had these initiation sessions. First of all, you had to be selected for them. In the beginning, you would listen to Maharaji give satsangs primarily... Host: What? Bob: Excuse me - that's a group term within the Divine Light Mission. It comes from the Hindi which roughly translated means 'company of truth'. It's the name that's applied to the lectures that the guru would give. In fact satsang is something very important in the Divine Light Mission practice of knowledge. Anyway, you would listen to him giving his lectures - the satsangs - and you would also listen to some of his devotees also giving these satsang lectures. After you were convinced that it was something that you wanted to try, and that you sincerely wanted to know, then you would make that known. You would ask to receive knowledge and then you would be selected, depending upon whether they thought you were ready or not, whoever they were. They at that time were a Mahatma and one or two of the devotees who were assisting him. As soon as you were selected, you would get to sit in one of these initiation sessions, which sometimes lasted anywhere from six to eight or ten hours. Host: OK, I have talked to people - as a matter of fact I met the Guru Maharaj Ji's mother and I believe that was in 1972 - and there was a get-together that you had put together at Redrocks also. That was also in 1972, I believe? Bob: Yes, that was in 1972. Maharaji says devotees don't have to leave religions Host: I had the chance to be there and thought it was interesting, but not any more interesting than anything else that I had heard. But it was amazing to me to watch the young people who were involved, how devoted they were and how this translated and somehow kept pace, always within keeping of their formal religions. If they were Catholic, they had a very Catholic view of the whole procedure. If you didn't accept the Guru Maharaj Ji when the light was offered to you, then you weren't going to be saved, very much like some religions today. That whole thing changed. How did it change?
The idea was that he was doing something that would unite all the religions of the world. Therefore, people were encouraged to bring their religious tradition into the Divine Light Mission. That's probably what accounted for the thing that you were observing in the way that people would interpret the Divine Light Mission practices in terms of their own religious background. I think that, to a certain extent, they would still probably tell that to people who were interested, or trying to get interested, in the Divine Light Mission now. Serious devotees always left their religions In the meantime, it has become a religion in its own right. I don't think that anybody could deny that. They have a whole body of dogma; a complete lifestyle, a way of life which they call Knowledge. It's not simply a singular kind of experience that you translate into your everyday life, as it was purported to be in the beginning, it's a whole system of idol worship where you must accept the guru as God. Host: Today, what they are saying is that the guru is the reincarnation of God. He is God. He is not simply a messenger; he is, as the Christians, or other religions would say, a Messiah. In the Christian sense, he is like Jesus. Bob: I think that would be pretty much what they would say. He is an embodiment of that power, and that power is God. That's what we have come to know as God. In India, you have some people argue with you for a long time saying, "no, no, no, he is greater than God". For us, that loses value in that we tend to interpret the word God as being that which is all-powerful. That's how they see him, as an embodiment of that all-powerful force which created and sustains and enlightens all being. Host: What happened as you saw these changes taking place in the Divine Light Mission, and really the embodiment of what the guru represented changing? How did that affect you? Bob: Well, it was a little bit more complex for me in terms of the changes I went through during that period myself. In general, it affected me in that I felt that we had a responsibility to be what we purported ourselves to be. To change it into something else was not something that I agreed with. Ultimately, my disagreement with Maharaji, particularly on this basis, led to my resignation. During a large part of the period that I was involved, I essentially went along the prevailing belief structure. Whether Guru Maharaj Ji was God or not really wasn't important. The important thing was that if you were devoted to him, you followed him absolutely. Whatever he said, even if it didn't make sense to you, you would find a way to make sense of it. I used to do that myself as well. I certainly did that a great deal for the devotees as well. I was one of the major spokespeople of the movement. Parallels between DLM and Jonestown mass suicide
There was a period during 1974 when there was an outright war, really, in the Divine Light Mission, between his mother and elder brother, whom you met. Maharaji took control of the mission. During this time, he began to rely on me very heavily, and then after that I lived with him. In living with him, I began to see a lot of the excesses in the devotion and practices that I felt were detrimental to the spiritual development of the devotees. I had attributed these to his mother and brother, and with them out of the way, that didn't necessarily need to be the case any longer. This was in my opinion, at least, as I had always found Maharaji to be very sincere and reasonable. In fact, during that period, we did decide to make some changes. At the beginning, well, around the end of 1975, we started what I would call a major change of emphasis in the Divine Light Mission. Maharaji changes mind about retiring in 1976 This was something that Maharaji and I arrived at as being necessary not only for the devotees but also for his own welfare as well. That was to change this belief that he was God, by actually coming out and denying it, and by taking some responsibility to de-program our own membership away from this belief. This was so that he wouldn't become the kind of cult leader that in fact he has become today. About half way through 1976, Maharaji got very insecure about what was going to happen to him if we continued with this. He realised that he was going to lose his automatic hold over the devotees that he had had up until that point. Host: Was this a conscious thing on his part? Bob: Oh, yes. This was a very conscious thing. We discussed it, and we outlined all the different perspectives that would be involved. At the time, what I had planned for him and with him, and up to the middle of 1976 he was largely agreeing with, was to use a lot of the money that had come to him in the form of gifts from his followers, to set up some investments. This would enable him to become financially independent from the continued support of the devotees. He had grown accustomed to a very luxurious lifestyle. A lot of the necessity of keeping the members believing that he was God was to ensure that they would continue to support him in this lifestyle. If it meant that he was going to have to make any sacrifices in this lifestyle (and it had become apparent by the middle of 1976 that this was going to be the case) then he didn't really want to have to do that. That's where we came to a parting of the ways, so to speak. As a result of that, I just left, because I recognised that I couldn't change him. If he wanted to change on his own, then that was something I was very willing to assist with. If he wasn't going to change, then I certainly wasn't going to continue to stay while he turned what was originally a mission to spread meditation to people freely into something that solicited donations to do this type of work and had all of its funds essentially going to support his luxurious lifestyle. So I resigned from the Divine Light Mission in January 1977, but for the last month or so of 1976 I really wasn't involved. It was understood that I was resigning. I didn't say anything, because at the time, I felt that a lot of the things that I knew really wouldn't be that well received. I had been the head of the Mission, after all, during that whole period, and people had all sorts of different conceptions about me. Really, I didn't feel that it was of any interest to people other than the present members, and most of them really didn't want to know the kind of things that I knew. Maharaji's authority 'dangerous and corrupting'
I'd see Maharaji go through a tremendous psychological deterioration during the time that I lived with him. These things were, I felt, his private affairs on one level. I also felt that the premies' beliefs were their own private affairs on another level. Maharaji attempts to hide behaviour
That means that, to my own way of thinking, it is very hypocritical to teach one lifestyle as a means of fulfilment to people, as a spiritual truth, and then live entirely opposite to that yourself. That becomes even more hypocritical, when in fact you don't just do the opposite, but you also make a great deal of effort and take a great deal of care in making sure that nobody knows this either. Host: There were rumors, and I don't know whether these rumors were based on any kind of fact or not, that he took advantage of several young women who were members of the Divine Light Mission, because of his position. To your knowledge, is any of that true? Bob: No, to my knowledge, that's not true. Although it was true that a number of his Mahatmas did that, and we had a number of problems with some of the Mahatmas on that level, I am not aware of Maharaji taking advantage of women followers. Maharaji's opulent lifestyle Host: Is the Maharaji a rich man today? Bob: I don't know what his personal worth is, but you would have to say that he is a rich man. That might sound a bit ambiguous, but his whole financial condition is a bit ambiguous, because he has so much of his wealth being provided for him by the Church. He has a great deal of income that comes to him in the tax-free form of gifts from his followers. How he uses that; well, when I was there, he was spending it. It was just amazing how much money he could spend. Host: He has several sports cars, I understand, I mean people gave him things. Bob: Yes, and he also had the Divine Light Mission buy him things. Whenever he wanted something, it really didn't matter whether we had the money for it or not. We were to get it, somehow or another. Host: I remember when he bought a Mercedes. There was a lot of flak about that. Bob: Yes, well, by the time I left, he must have had at least three Mercedes, a couple of Rolls Royces, and least three or four other luxurious automobiles in the 30 or 40,000 dollar range. I mean, it wasn't just a question of having one, he had a whole fleet. Followers afraid of Bob Mishler Host: How do the members of the Divine Light Mission see you today? Do they see you as a Judas? Bob: Well, I suppose you would have to ask them. They have a special name for someone like me which, I guess is a sort of a Judas. The call it a Munmat. That is someone who has become anti-guru. I think that with the exception of a few, and it really is just a few, of the present members who still believe in Guru Maharaj Ji who have had the courage to talk to me and still relate to me, most of them are really afraid to talk to me. This is because I'm seen as someone who is completely in their minds. The mind is a very dangerous thing to a premie. That's symbolic of everything that makes you doubt the truth which Guru Maharaj Ji has revealed to you. In fact, he has even commanded his following never to allow any room for doubt in their minds. They are supposed to control their minds through the practice of meditation. So, to talk to someone like myself, who is completely in the mind, supposedly, would be a very dangerous thing to do, because I could confuse them. Beginning of open discussion between Bob M., the Host, and random telephone callers: Caller #1: It's really a relief to hear somebody who has left one of these cult religions rather than being on the air to convert people. What is your purpose now in speaking out against the Church? Are you just simply stating your own case or are you involved in trying to win other people away from the group, to get them to look at it more objectively? Bob: I think that I have to agree with you in that I am trying to get people to look at him more critically now, particularly people who are in a position to influence current members. I don't expect that very many current members are going to even really listen to what I have to say, but maybe their families will, maybe some of their friends will. In fact, since I made the statement after the incident in Guyana (mass suicide of cult members), I've had phone calls continuously from parents and concerned friends and family members from all over the country. They have been asking if I could give information or they have just wanted to talk to me about what they can do, how can they talk to their loved ones who are still involved, because they are really at a loss to know how to reach them. It's such an all-inclusive belief system. Caller #1: Is it a problem for you to get them to listen to you? Is it hard to get them alone? Do they just hang around with each other for the most part? Bob: Yes, they have their own world in a way. Caller #1: I tried to talk to them myself. I would characterise them basically as being young, not street-wise or hip, in fear or confused, with very little ability to cope with the world outside of a group. Another thing I am thinking about is perhaps they are looking for the good parents that they didn't have. Maybe they've come from basically unhappy family situations, which isn't that unusual. It might even be typical, you know, people in society. Bob: Yes, I think that certainly what you have said would apply to some of the people involved. It's hard to capture everybody with a generalization. Caller #1: Oh, sure, I've met some people who are basically intelligent. I was talking to some guy who had advanced degrees. I went to one of the satsangs. The guy sounded pretty intelligent, and I said: "What about the guru's behaviour? What about the fact that he's overweight? What about the fact that he's had speeding tickets in his Maserati? He's a young guy and he got married to a woman maybe ten years older than himself and he's already got several kids. He seems to carry on a lot". This guy was saying: "This doesn't concern me that much". I guess different people in the church have their own degrees of what they will accept, just like in any other church. Host: However, there are professional people, attorneys, certainly not your wandering little lost souls. I don't know whether that is still the case, but it was at the time that I was familiar with the Divine Light Mission. There were also people who were very street-wise. Caller #1: Just because a person is a lawyer or something doesn't mean that he's not an easy mark. I mean, look at the psychics, like Uri Geller. They took in some scientists, as they knew how a person could be fooled by optical illusions, etc. The only ones that could show up these guys like Uri Geller were the magicians - the real sceptics. They knew the various tricks - the hand is quicker than the eye, etc. They always said: "Well, let me be in the room when Uri Geller is performing one of his tricks and I'll show you how I can do the same thing". Host: Well, they can do the same thing by trick. However, there were a number of studies with Geller. I don't want to go into that. Bob: I think that what you are talking about is that there are a lot of different reasons why people need to believe in something. One other aspect that you must consider is when a person does believe that things do happen for that person. That has happened to a lot of people who have been involved in the Divine Light Mission. They have experiences that are very satisfying and fulfilling to them. The only thing that I object to is the way they are taught to attribute whatever experience they have to the guru himself. This is actually where they are actually being taken advantage of. Caller #1: I believe that each person is God, and that God is in man. It is up to all of us to find the God in ourselves and develop it to be best of our ability. Do the best you can, and good will come to you'. I think that's basically my own belief, and I was wondering if your guest has come around to this point of view if he is still working for divinity somewhere. Bob: Well, I don't think I was ever really looking for divinity except within myself. Essentially, Maharaji was teaching that in the very beginning himself. It's only over the course of time that it has changed and become an idol worship cult. Caller #1: I remember in 1971 back in New York, from the very first, the impression of the advertising was that the guru was God, yet he didn't say that himself, everyone else around him said that he was God. Bob: Well, again, that just shows the latitude that there was. You could believe he was God if you wanted to. I didn't really want to believe that he was God, and so I didn't. Host (to caller): OK, thank you. Bye bye. Caller #2: Bob, I assume that you are out of the Divine Light Mission altogether? Bob: Yes, that's correct. Maharaji drinking alcohol to relieve stress Caller #2: What are you doing now? Have you changed your spiritual beliefs substantially since that point? In other words, what did you see or not see in the guru that caused you to get out of it? Bob: Well, I essentially saw that the guru wasn't what he was being purported to be. In fact, not only was he not God or divine in any way, but he wasn't really even capable of guiding his followers. He didn't know enough about the meditation himself really to be able to even instruct the disciples that were teaching meditation on his behalf, when critical questions came up. Even though he was supposedly revealing the means to perfect peace to all of his following, he himself had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combated with alcohol. It even developed into a high blood pressure condition caused by essential hypertension, which is a form of internalising anxiety. So here was a man who was supposedly revealing perfect peace to everyone else, and I figured he couldn't even guide his own life, let alone guide others. Caller #2: How could people ever think that a 15 year old kid could be God in the first place is beyond me. The accounts that we have of Jesus in the New Testament are so vastly different. Host: Remember only that those accounts are long after the fact, and they are as his followers saw him, and not necessarily as he really was. Maharaji 'off-stage' Bob: Also remember that Maharaji puts on a good show, and the theatrics involved are very appealing to the kind of mass consciousness that you get in the crowds he appears in. Most of the members have never really seen him as he actually is. They have only seen him under very well-staged and planned conditions.
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