1 1 before the florida public service commission 2 docket no. 070650-ei 3 In the Matter of: 4 petition to determine need for turkey point nuclear units 6 and 7 electrical 5 power plant, by florida power & light company



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1 1 BEFORE THE FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 2 DOCKET NO. 070650-EI 3 In the Matter of: 4 PETITION TO DETERMINE NEED FOR TURKEY POINT NUCLEAR UNITS 6 AND 7 ELECTRICAL 5 POWER PLANT, BY FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY. 6 _______________________________________/ 7 8 9 ELECTRONIC VERSIONS OF THIS TRANSCRIPT ARE A CONVENIENCE COPY ONLY AND ARE NOT 10 THE OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF THE HEARING, THE .PDF VERSION INCLUDES PREFILED TESTIMONY. 11 12 PROCEEDINGS: MIAMI SERVICE HEARING 13 BEFORE: CHAIRMAN MATTHEW M. CARTER, II COMMISSIONER LISA POLAK EDGAR 14 COMMISSIONER KATRINA J. MCMURRIAN COMMISSIONER NANCY ARGENZIANO 15 COMMISSIONER NATHAN A. SKOP 16 DATE: Wednesday, January 9, 2008 17 TIME: Commenced at 4:00 p.m. Concluded at 7:51 p.m. 18 PLACE: Miami Dade College 19 Wolfson Campus Auditorium Building 1000, 2nd Floor, Room 1261 20 300 NE 2nd Avenue Miami, Florida 21 REPORTED BY: LINDA BOLES, RPR, CRR 22 Official Commission Reporter (850) 413-6734 23 24 25 FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 PATRICK BRYAN, ESQUIRE, and WADE LITCHFIELD, ESQUIRE, 3 700 Universe Boulevard, Juno Beach, Florida 33408-0420, 4 appearing on behalf of Florida Power & Light Company. 5 BOB and JAN KRASOWSKI, 1086 Michigan Avenue, Naples, 6 Florida 34103-3857, appearing pro se (Krasowski). 7 J. R. KELLY, PUBLIC COUNSEL, and CHARLES J. BECK, 8 ESQUIRE, Office of Public Counsel, c/o The Florida Legislature, 9 111 W. Madison St., Room 812, Tallahassee, Florida 32399-1400, 10 appearing on behalf of the Citizens of Florida. 11 KATHERINE FLEMING, ESQUIRE, and JENNIFER BRUBAKER, 12 ESQUIRE, FPSC General Counsel's Office, 2540 Shumard Oak 13 Boulevard, Tallahassee, Florida 32399-0850, appearing on behalf 14 of the Commission Staff. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 3 1 I N D E X 2 3 SPEAKERS: PAGE NO. 4 ROLANDO MONTOYA, Miami-Dade College 8 5 PAT BRYAN, FPL 16 6 ERIC SILAGY, FPL 17 7 JON BURGESS, City of Homestead 28 8 SYLVESTER JACKSON, City of Florida City 31 9 HORACE FELIU, City of South Miami 33 10 11 WITNESSES 12 NAME: PAGE NO. 13 ONIL MARURI Direct Statement 35 14 Cross Examination by Mr. Krasowski 40 15 JOHENNYS LEIVA Direct Statement 41 16 Cross Examination by Mr. Krasowski 42 17 IGNACIO QUIRCH Direct Statement 43 18 NANCY LEE 19 Direct Statement 44 Cross Examination by Mr. Krasowski 48 20 ALAN FARAGO 21 Direct Statement 48 Cross Examination by Mr. Krasowski 53 22 MARY OLSEN 23 Direct Statement 54 Cross Examination by Mr. Krasowski 65 24 PETER SIPP 25 Direct Statement 68 Cross Examination by Mr. Krasowski 70 FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 4 1 2 WITNESSES 3 NAME: PAGE NO. 4 DAWN SHIRREFFS Direct Statement 71 5 Cross Examination by Mr. Krasowski 75 6 AGUSTIN RODRIGUEZ Direct Statement 83 7 MARK ONCAVAGE 8 Direct Statement 84 Cross Examination by Mr. Krasowski 90 9 PEDRO CAPO 10 Direct Statement 93 11 RHONDA ROFF Direct Statement 96 12 DEBBIE ARNASON 13 Direct Statement 101 14 EILEEN SMITH Direct Statement 105 15 GEORGE CAVROS 16 Direct Statement 108 17 JENNIFER ROCK Direct Statement 113 18 STEVE McGONIGLE 19 Direct Statement 117 20 ERIC KNOWLES Direct Statement 119 21 JULIE HILL 22 Direct Statement 120 23 DON EHAT Direct Statement 122 24 JAAP DONATH, Ph.D. 25 Direct Statement 123 FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 5 1 WITNESSES 2 NAME: PAGE NO. 3 SHARON GRIEMSMAN Direct Statement 125 4 LAURA SUE WILANSKY 5 Direct Statement 128 6 BARRY JOHNSON Direct Statement 131 7 JEANNE JACOBS 8 Direct Statement 133 9 JOE CHI Direct Statement 135 10 ANA RODRIGUEZ 11 Direct Statement 138 12 ED REDLICH Direct Statement 144 13 MIGUEL FUENTES 14 Direct Statement 145 15 CATHY GILBERT Direct Statement 147 16 ERIC PANTALEON, M.D. 17 Direct Statement 150 18 BOBBIE MESSER Direct Statement 152 19 SUZETTE RICE 20 Direct Statement 154 21 STEVE SHOWEN Direct Statement 159 22 STEVE FLINT 23 Direct Statement 163 24 25 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 169 FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 6 1 EXHIBITS 2 NUMBER: ID. 3 1 City of Homestead Resolution 29 4 2 Nancy Lee Document 48 5 3 Mary Olsen Documents 65 6 4 Mark Oncavage Documents 91 7 5 Debbie Arnason Documents 108 8 6 George Cavros Documents 112 9 7 Jennifer Rock Poster 116 10 8 Steve McGonigle Documents 117 11 9 Sharone Griemsman Document 127 12 10 Laura Sue Wilansky Documents 130 13 11 Cathy Gilbert Document 149 14 12 Suzette Rice Documents 158 15 13 Steve Showen Document 162 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 7 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Call this hearing to order. Ask 3 staff to read the notice, please. 4 MS. BRUBAKER: Pursuant to notice, this time and 5 place has been scheduled for the purpose of conducting a 6 service hearing for Docket 070650-EI. The purpose of the 7 service hearing is set forth more fully in the notice. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Good afternoon, everyone. 9 Can y'all hear me because I can't hear myself? Good afternoon. 10 I want to thank you all for coming this afternoon for 11 this opportunity to share with you from the Florida Public 12 Service Commission. With me today are my fellow Commissioners, 13 Commissioner Edgar, Commissioner Argenziano, Commissioner 14 McMurrian and Commissioner Skop. And at this point in time we 15 will have -- we'll take appearances. 16 MR. BRYAN: Good afternoon. Patrick Bryan and Wade 17 Litchfield on behalf of FPL. 18 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. 19 MRS. KRASOWSKI: Good afternoon. Jan Krasowski, 20 Intervenor. 21 MR. KRASOWSKI: Good afternoon. I'm Bob Krasowski, 22 FPL ratepayer/Intervenor as well. And congratulations, 23 Commissioner Carter, on your new chairmanship. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Now office of Public 25 Counsel. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 8 1 MR. KELLY: J. R. Kelly and Charlie Beck, Office of 2 Public Counsel. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Staff. 4 MS. BRUBAKER: And on behalf of the Commission, 5 Jennifer Brubaker. I'd also like to enter an appearance for 6 Katherine Fleming. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Also with us on the 8 platform, Mr. Tom Ballinger from our staff. We also have 9 additional PSC staffers out here. You've probably got a better 10 view of me than I have of you, so I'd ask all of our staffers, 11 would you please stand so they can see our PSC staffers here. 12 We have some outside at the table and some here within the 13 confines of the facility. Thank you very much. Thank you 14 very, very much. 15 I want to welcome you here to our hearing this 16 afternoon. But before I get started, I wanted to kind of start 17 with some housekeeping matters. Not the kind you think. First 18 of all, I'd like to recognize Mr. Rolando Montoya, who is our 19 host for the evening. Would you please come and make some 20 remarks, please, sir? 21 MR. MONTOYA: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and 22 Commissioners. Welcome to Miami. Welcome to Miami-Dade 23 College. We are really glad to offer this space to you, and we 24 are very grateful for the opportunity that you are providing to 25 this community to express their opinions to you, and we hope FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 9 1 that you have a very productive afternoon. Thank you so much 2 for being here. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Montoya, for your 4 outstanding hospitality. 5 Commissioner Argenziano. 6 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: I just -- I guess you can 7 hear me. I just want to give a special thanks. We were having 8 a little bit of a problem getting a good meeting place so that 9 the good people of Miami could come in to speak to us. And I 10 did want to mention that Senator Villalobos helped us. And 11 thank you so much to Miami-Dade College because you were right 12 there and got us a place immediately, and we really appreciate 13 that. 14 MR. MONTOYA: Our pleasure. 15 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Let me make a few 17 comments here and then we'll go from there. I've got to make a 18 few comments here just for the, for the record to get us kicked 19 off here and then we'll officially get kicked off. Is that, as 20 I said, I wanted to welcome all of you here this afternoon for 21 this opportunity to listen as well as hear what we're hearing 22 from Florida Power & Light. They've asked the Commission to 23 make a determination regarding whether there's a need for the 24 nuclear power plant that they're proposing to build in Dade 25 County. To make this determination our statutes require us to FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 10 1 examine the need for electric system reliability and integrity, 2 including fuel diversity, the need for baseload generating 3 capacity, the need for adequate electricity at a reasonable 4 cost, and whether renewable energy sources and technologies as 5 well as conservation measures are utilized to the extent 6 reasonably available. 7 In addition, the Commission may consider other 8 relevant matters that are within our jurisdiction. Today we 9 want to hear anything that you have to say regarding the need 10 for the proposed power plants and the issues that I've just 11 described. There will be -- separate public hearings will be 12 held before other agencies that consider the environmental and 13 other impacts of the proposed plants. 14 Our need determination hearings are typically divided 15 into two portions. In the first portion we take testimony from 16 members of the public regarding the need determination that's 17 been requested in this docket. Normally that would take place 18 only in Tallahassee, but in this instance we thought we'd 19 schedule an additional session of public testimony here in Dade 20 County. And this evening we'll -- after this evening's meeting 21 we'll resume in Tallahassee on January 30th to continue our 22 hearings. Once the public testimony portion of the hearing is 23 concluded in Tallahassee and everyone has had an opportunity to 24 speak, then we'll go into what we call an evidentiary portion 25 of the hearing where the parties will present their witnesses FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 11 1 and other evidence and cross-examination and things of that 2 nature. And after the conclusion of the evidentiary hearing, 3 then the parties will file briefs before the Commission and the 4 Commission staff will make a recommendation, they will present 5 it to those of us at the Commission, and we will take a 6 decision scheduled currently for March 18th at our conference. 7 And the public -- I just want to say that the public 8 testimony portion of the hearing is an important part of our 9 process. It's important because it's our best opportunity to 10 hear from members of the public on what FPL has proposed, and 11 we appreciate the fact of you taking out time from your very 12 busy schedules to be with us here today. Before I go on, let 13 me introduce to some Ms. Elena Menendez, who will be, who will 14 be a translator for anyone that wants to speak Spanish or needs 15 assistance in speaking Spanish. So thank you for being with us 16 today. We sincerely appreciate that. 17 And let me kind of give you the lay of the landscape. 18 It may be redundant, but that's okay too. Is that when we get 19 into our public testimony portion of the presentation, we'll 20 swear you in before you make your comments and that will be 21 after we have a presentation given by FPL. And in the process 22 of that, if there's any person that wants to be heard, you can 23 sign up with our staff outside and we'll get your name and 24 present that. If there's any person that wants to be heard but 25 you don't want to speak, you just want to send in some FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 12 1 comments, there's a green sheet that's outside. You can just 2 take that, put your comments on that, it folds into a mailer, 3 and you can send it into the Commission and we'll make it part 4 of the record. So I just want to make sure and let you know 5 that you'll have ample opportunity to be heard on this issue. 6 And in the process when we do go into our testimony 7 portion of it, the first thing we'll do is we'll recognize our 8 public officials and hear from them, and then we'll go into the 9 process of hearing from our people that are here. 10 Let me just kind of -- another housekeeping note, 11 when you do speak into the microphone, as you'll notice, what 12 we had to do is we had to pull them a little closer, get a 13 little bit intimate with the microphones so we can kind of hear 14 you clearly. And we have a court reporter here who's taking 15 down everything we say here. 16 So at this portion in time before I hear from FPL, 17 Mr. Kelly, would you want to make a statement or anything? 18 MR. KELLY: Sure. 19 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Yes, sir. You're recognized. 20 MR. KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted 21 to introduce myself. I'm J. R. Kelly. I'm here with Charlie 22 Beck. We're with the Office of Public Counsel. And for those 23 of you that are not familiar with our office, we are 24 independent from the Florida Public Service Commission. We 25 represent the, the state ratepayers, consumers' interests for FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 13 1 all Floridians. And we're very anxious to hear your comments 2 today and we encourage everybody to please share anything that 3 you wish to say, and you'll hear the Chairman continue that, 4 and we echo that same sentiment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you very kindly. 6 Ms. Brubaker, are there any other preliminary 7 matters? 8 MS. BRUBAKER: Staff is aware of none. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Then -- 10 COMMISSIONER EDGAR: Mr. Chairman. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You are recognized -- 12 COMMISSIONER EDGAR: Thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: -- Commissioner Edgar. I almost 14 said Chairman. Commissioner Edgar, you are recognized. 15 COMMISSIONER EDGAR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 16 I did have one preliminary question, and maybe 17 Ms. Brubaker can make it clearer to me. I noticed that when we 18 were taking appearances from counsel to represent parties that 19 Mr. and Mrs. Krasowski came forward, and I'm always glad to see 20 the Krasowskis, they've participated in a number of our 21 proceedings and I know follow along these issues very closely. 22 But I was not aware that other parties had been granted 23 intervention status in this case. 24 MS. BRUBAKER: That's correct. A number of other 25 entities have sought intervention in this case. For instance, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 14 1 FMPA, FMEA. That status is still pending. If they are 2 present, which I don't believe that they are, and wish to 3 speak, we would recommend that they be permitted to participate 4 as a party would at this point, and that way their process is 5 reserved if the intervention is granted. I'm not aware that 6 they are actually present at this time, however. Does that 7 answer your -- 8 COMMISSIONER EDGAR: Well, not really, but let me try 9 again. I maybe wasn't clear. So for -- just so that I am 10 clear -- and maybe the Krasowskis are crystal clear on their 11 status but I guess I am not. 12 MS. BRUBAKER: Oh, I apologize. I understand. They 13 have been granted intervention in this matter. 14 COMMISSIONER EDGAR: They have been granted 15 intervention? 16 MS. BRUBAKER: They have and there's been an order 17 issued. My apologies. 18 COMMISSIONER EDGAR: Okay. So they will be in a 19 position to be able to ask questions of, of people who are 20 coming forward. 21 MS. BRUBAKER: That's correct. 22 COMMISSIONER EDGAR: All right. Thank you very much. 23 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Commissioner. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Commissioner Skop. 25 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you, Commissioner. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 15 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Get intimate with it. 2 (Laughter.) 3 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 4 Ms. Brubaker, if you could also clarify just that it 5 is limited intervention to the specific -- 6 MS. BRUBAKER: Correct. Currently the parties, the 7 officially recognized parties in this docket are Florida Power 8 & Light, the Office of Public Counsel, of course, and Jan and 9 Bob Krasowski. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And, Commissioners, before we go 11 further, any further questions by any Commissioner? 12 In a moment, in a moment we'll hear from Florida 13 Power & Light, FPL and their presentation. But let me just 14 kind of say when we get ready to start taking public testimony, 15 we'll swear you in as a group, and I'd like to wait until after 16 they do their presentation. That way if there are people that 17 are still coming in, we can kind of, you know, get more bang 18 for the buck, so to speak. But additionally as you're coming 19 up to speak, as I said, please be intimate with the microphone 20 so we can really hear what you have to say. 21 The other thing is that you may or may not get 22 questions from the parties and you may or may not get questions 23 from the Commissioners. So just be aware of that. 24 Commissioners, anything further? 25 Okay. FPL, you're now recognized. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 16 1 MR. BRYAN: Thank you, Chairman Carter and 2 Commissioners. 3 Good afternoon. My name is Patrick Bryan. I am an 4 attorney for Florida Power & Light Company. And first of all, 5 I'd like to thank you, thank each of you for coming out this 6 afternoon. Your input is invaluable to FPL and we take it very 7 seriously. 8 In a moment you will hear from Eric Silagy, who is 9 FPL's Vice President of Development, who will give a short 10 presentation. But first I wanted to inform any of our 11 customers who are here this afternoon that we have brought 12 several customer service representatives along with us. They 13 are equipped with online computers and are available to meet 14 with any customer who has an issue, a question or problem 15 concerning his or her electric account or service. With their 16 computers they can bring up your account information 17 immediately, and we will make every effort to resolve your 18 issue this afternoon before the conclusion of the hearing, if 19 that's possible. In fact, FPL's Vice President of Customer 20 Service, Marlene Santos, is here as well in attendance. She 21 will oversee those efforts and assist as necessary. Our 22 customer service representatives have set up shop in a room 23 just outside the auditorium to the right. I encourage any 24 customer with an issue to take advantage of this opportunity. 25 If you are interested, we have representatives in the back of FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 17 1 the room right there who will be happy to assist you and direct 2 you to the room. 3 At this time then I would like to introduce Eric 4 Silagy, FPL's Vice President of Development. Eric. 5 MR. SILAGY: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, 6 Commissioners. My name is Eric Silagy, and I am the Vice 7 President of Development for Florida Power & Light. And in 8 that capacity I am in charge of overseeing the process for 9 building new generation meeting our capacity needs here in 10 Florida. On behalf of the entire leadership team and the more 11 than 11,000 FPL employees, I want to thank the Commission for 12 holding this important hearing on potential new nuclear 13 generation in Florida and for giving us the opportunity to make 14 this brief opening statement. I want to also thank the members 15 of the public who have taken the time to be here today. Your 16 concerns and views are all very important to us. 17 We come to you having just received affirmation for 18 this project from the Board of County Commissioners of 19 Miami-Dade. The Commission overwhelmingly supported FPL's 20 efforts to bring this important project to our customers. 21 Florida Power & Light has been providing Floridians with 22 reliable and affordable power for more than 80 years, and for 23 nearly half that time nuclear power has been a cornerstone of 24 our power generation portfolio. For it was nearly 35 years ago 25 last month that FPL first brought clean, safe, reliable nuclear FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 18 1 power here in Florida with the beginning of the commercial 2 operations for Turkey Point Unit 3. Today nuclear power 3 represents an important part of our generating portfolio, about 4 20 percent. At a time when demand for electricity is growing 5 vigorously, we expect nuclear power will play an even more 6 important role in the future by helping us meet the growing 7 needs of our customers while increasing our energy independence 8 and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Keep in mind, however, 9 that even with the addition of Turkey Point 6 and 7, the 10 relative contribution of nuclear power within FPL's generating 11 fleet increases only modestly. Simply stated, nuclear power is 12 the right, proven solution for our community and our 13 environment. 14 I'd like to briefly review six reasons why as part of 15 our commitment to a cleaner, smarter, greener tomorrow FPL 16 intends to continue pursuing the option of building two 17 additional nuclear facilities at Turkey Point. Not all of 18 these necessarily are issues that will be before you as part of 19 a need determination proceeding because other regulatory 20 agencies such as the Nuclear Regulatory Commission will have to 21 review specific areas such as safety and approve the project. 22 However, given that we have a number of customers here today 23 who are here for information, we feel that we'll try to present 24 a somewhat broader frame of reference for the project. I would 25 ask that you not be concerned with the order in which I present FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 19 1 these because, frankly, these are all very important issues. 2 Nuclear power is a reliable and affordable source of 3 energy capable of providing large amounts of electricity to 4 meet Florida's increasing needs. Over the next decade, FPL is 5 projecting that we're going to increase approximately 85,000 6 new customer accounts each year. Larger homes, expanding 7 businesses and the more extensive use of a vast array of 8 electronic devices add to the growing demand for power. 9 A good portion of FPL's electric demand continues to 10 be met through our industry leading energy efficiency and 11 conservation programs. To date, the successful partnership 12 with our customers has eliminated the need to build the 13 equivalent of 11 power plants. And although these energy 14 efficient programs will continue to help us stem the demand, 15 these programs alone are not enough to avoid the challenges 16 that we face. As a matter of fact, FPL will need 37 percent 17 more electricity by the summer of 2020 than we currently do in 18 2007. So we must continue to build power plants. 19 Nuclear energy has the lowest production costs of any 20 widely used fuel to generate electricity, even coal, largely 21 due to the significantly less amount of fuel that is required. 22 So although initially expensive to build, the overall costs 23 make it one of the most cost-effective energy sources 24 available. 25 As such, it provides what is known in the industry as FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 20 1 baseload generation. That is generation that's capable of 2 producing large amounts of electricity 24 hours a day, seven 3 days a week, and that's what our customers need. The new 4 Turkey Point units would add between 2,200 and 3,000 megawatts 5 to our system, or enough power to meet the needs of nearly half 6 a million customers. 7 Nuclear energy means greater independence for 8 Floridians and protecting us and our economy from being too 9 reliant on fuel, including oil and natural gas. Having 10 different fuel sources in generation is very important so that 11 we're less affected by fluctuating prices and fuel supply 12 constraints whenever they may occur. 13 At present, just over half of the electric power that 14 FPL generates is done so using natural gas, and that percentage 15 is expected to increase in the future. There are currently two 16 primary gas pipelines that serve Florida, and a large portion 17 of that natural gas comes from the Gulf of Mexico. FPL faced 18 significant challenges in managing its fuel requirements during 19 the 2005 hurricane season when natural gas supplies from the 20 Gulf of Mexico were disrupted due in particular to the two 21 severe storm events that we had. 22 Growing our nuclear power portfolio would also help 23 us gain more energy independence. As Governor Crist said this 24 summer, and I quote, we know we must reduce our dependence on 25 foreign oil. Renewable energy such as ethanol and biofuels, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 21 1 solar, wind and nuclear energy can help us be more independent 2 from oil from other countries, end quote. 3 Adding two nuclear units at Turkey Point would help 4 us maintain the balance in the fuel mix and help us reduce our 5 dependence on oil and natural gas. 6 Nuclear power is a clean source that does not produce 7 greenhouse gases. FPL is committed to providing clean energy 8 to a growing Florida. Nuclear power is the best option to meet 9 Florida's growing demand for electric power and reduce 10 greenhouse gas emissions. 11 While FPL is already a leader in renewables, has made 12 a commitment to invest in research and development of these 13 technologies in the State of Florida and is proactively 14 pursuing several renewable projects, renewable energy sources 15 simply do not have the capacity to generate the amount of 16 electricity we will need to meet our electrical needs in the 17 future, at least not at this moment. Nuclear power can meet 18 the clean energy needs of our customers today. 19 Nuclear power is the only source, energy source, 20 excuse me, capable of producing large amounts of energy which 21 does not emit any gases such as CO2 to our environment. It's 22 been a key contributor to our ability to keep FPL's emissions 23 rates among the lowest of all utilities in the United States. 24 In fact, in 2006 FPL's nuclear units avoided over 15 25 million tons of CO2 emissions that otherwise would have been FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 22 1 emitted using fossil fuels. Now, according to the United 2 States Environmental Protection Agency, that's the equivalent 3 of taking 4 million cars off the roads. 4 For 35 years nuclear power has proven to be a safe 5 source of power for FPL customers. Although safety of nuclear 6 plants is regulated by the NRC, we understand it to be of 7 interest to all in the community, and we at FPL take our 8 responsibility very, very seriously to protect the public 9 health and it is a top priority. 10 Our nuclear power units, like the more than 100 11 across this country, meet strict safety standards designed to 12 protect employees and ensure public health and safety. Our 13 plant operators are highly qualified professionals, trained and 14 tested through certified and accredited programs and then 15 continuously retrained to ensure safety and secure operations. 16 State-of-the-art technology continuously monitors and 17 tests equipment to identify potential problems before they 18 occur. FPL's nuclear plants are equipped, excuse me, with 19 multiple backup systems to protect against equipment failures 20 and severe weather events such as hurricanes, tornados, fires 21 and floods. And, in fact, many of you who live in Miami-Dade 22 know Turkey Point withstood Category 5 Hurricane Andrew, 23 Category 5 Hurricane Andrew in 1992. 24 And, again, like all U.S. nuclear power plants, the 25 U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission as well as other federal, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 23 1 state and local agencies closely monitor our operations. FPL 2 nuclear facilities also work with federal, state and local 3 agencies to develop and exercise sophisticated emergency 4 response plans to protect the public health and safety in the 5 unlikely event that a situation occurs. That means at Turkey 6 Point, for example, we work very closely with Miami-Dade 7 County, Monroe County, the State of Florida officials, as well 8 as the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and the Federal Emergency 9 Management Agency. And I might note that all these agencies 10 participate in graded exercises or dry runs, as we sometimes 11 call them, and we've always earned high marks at the Turkey 12 Point facility. 13 Going hand in hand with safety is security. Nuclear 14 power plants are extremely secure; designed and operated with 15 extensive security guidelines to ensure all of our protections. 16 U.S. nuclear power plants, FPL's included, are capable of 17 withstanding severe impacts from natural disasters and 18 terrorist attacks, including impacts from large commercial 19 aircraft. 20 Nuclear security programs and personnel are a large, 21 are part of a large local and national security network which 22 routinely reviews and tests facilities on collaborative drills. 23 A two-day national security simulation in Washington, D.C., 24 which occurred in 2002, conducted by the Center for Strategic 25 and International Studies concluded that nuclear plants, and I FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 24 1 quote, are probably our best defended targets, end quote. 2 Plant security resources and procedures are designed to prevent 3 intrusion and we regularly drill against very challenging 4 scenarios. 5 And finally, why Turkey Point? Before we chose 6 Turkey Point as a potential location for these new additional 7 units, FPL performed a comprehensive assessment of numerous 8 sites throughout our service territory and more than a dozen 9 underwent detailed study. Turkey Point was selected because 10 it, one, makes sense to utilize an existing site that has 11 successfully filled its role for the past 30 years. Using an 12 existing site allows us to minimize the impact on Florida's 13 lands and other natural resources. It benefits from existing 14 facilities already paid for by the customers such as electrical 15 transmission interconnections, roads and support buildings. It 16 helps balance the demand and strengthen the reliability of 17 South Florida, and it makes sense for the environment to add 18 generation without adding additional greenhouse gases. 19 Members of the Commission and the public, I'd like to 20 take a few moments then just to summarize. We at FPL commend 21 the Commission for holding this hearing and for your attention 22 here today. We're very proud of our operating record and for 23 providing reliable and cost-effective power to generations of 24 Floridians. We're equally proud of our safe operational record 25 and that nuclear power has been a cornerstone to that effort, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 25 1 and we believe it should play a greater role going forward. 2 Nuclear power is affordable and it is reliable. It means less 3 reliance by Floridians on natural gas from the Gulf of Mexico, 4 more energy independence from foreign oil, and especially 5 important in a world more concerned than ever about 6 environmental issues it means we're able to generate 7 emissions-free power. Nuclear power plants are proven, safe 8 and secure. Turkey Point is a great choice because it 9 minimizes the impact on Florida's resources, it makes use of 10 existing infrastructure and it strengthens the electric 11 reliability of all of South Florida. 12 Our team at FPL is not only doing the right thing for 13 the future of Florida across our planning for new generation 14 and through our current operations, but the project before you 15 now, our proposed additional two units at Turkey Point, is very 16 simply the right project being done at the right time and it's 17 in the right location, and we believe we're doing it the right 18 way. 19 We're very pleased and proud that three weeks ago we 20 obtained an overwhelming vote of support and formal and use 21 approval from the Miami-Dade Commission to move forward with 22 this project. The county's technical staff and FPL worked hand 23 in hand to bring to Miami-Dade County a recommendation of 24 approval with conditions that satisfy the county's agency 25 requirements. These concerns -- excuse me. At that hearing, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 26 1 as I'm sure today, a number of individuals expressed concerns 2 about issues such as water source and discharge, environmental 3 sensitivity, site elevation and other matters, and these 4 concerns are also our concerns. We are very proud that the 5 approval granted by Miami-Dade County expressly makes sure that 6 the approval process ahead of us satisfies each of these 7 issues. And we're equally proud that every single Miami-Dade 8 department, including water, environment, public works, public 9 safety and zoning were fully satisfied by the approval granted 10 by the Miami-Dade Commission. 11 Fulfilling a utility's obligation to serve, as we've 12 done for the past 80 years, is a high calling in and of itself. 13 But incorporating additional nuclear power into our fuel mix is 14 a responsibility that we must take extremely seriously, and 15 we're doing just that. And I might add to us that it's 16 personal. We live here, we raise our family and our children 17 here and we work in these communities, as do our neighbors and 18 all of you here today. 19 We recognize there are a number of individuals here 20 today, as there were a few weeks ago at Miami-Dade County, to 21 express their views and their concerns about the project. We 22 welcome your input, your views here and at every point in the 23 regulatory process, so that when it comes time to make a 24 decision on the future of new nuclear power in Florida and in 25 our drive to a cleaner, smarter and greener future, we can all FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 27 1 make sure that the best interests of Floridians have been 2 secured. 3 Thank you very much for your interest, your time and 4 your concerns today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Commissioners, before 6 we go forward with swearing in the public to speak, do you have 7 any questions for FPL at this point in time? Otherwise, 8 we'll -- okay. Hearing none, if there's anyone that's come 9 since I made my statements earlier, please note that if you're 10 interested in speaking today, out front at the table staff has 11 sheets for you to sign up to speak. Those of you that just 12 want your voices to be heard but you don't really want to 13 speak, there's some green sheets out there. Just tear the back 14 page off and you can write your comments, and there's a mailer 15 you can send in to the Public Service Commission and we'll take 16 those comments from you and make them as part of the record. 17 So if there's anyone that's interested in speaking today, would 18 you please stand and I'll swear you in and we can move forward 19 with our public testimony. All of those interested in 20 speaking, would you please stand. 21 (Witnesses collectively sworn.) 22 Please be seated. Thank you. If there's anyone 23 that's in need of assistance for Spanish, we have Ms. Menendez 24 that will assist you. 25 Ms. Brubaker, would you please call our first -- FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 28 1 wait. Let -- hold on one moment. Let me do this before I get 2 carried away. I don't want to get carried away before myself. 3 I want to meet myself going and coming. First of all, let's 4 take a moment to hear from some public officials that are here 5 with us today. First of all, Mr. Jon Burgess from the City of 6 Homestead. Mr. Burgess. 7 MR. BURGESS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and 8 Commissioners. Thank you very much for having me here today. 9 My name is Jon Burgess. I'm the Vice Mayor of the City of 10 Homestead. We just came here today to show our support for 11 FP&L and let you know that we have passed a Resolution 12 approximately one month ago down there on a unanimous vote to 13 let our good neighbor FP&L move forward, hopefully move forward 14 with their project. They've been a good neighbor to us down 15 there. And as the largest municipality that's directly 16 affected by the influx of the building and all going on down 17 there, we welcome it and look forward to having it in our, in 18 our backyard. And I won't take up a lot of time here today 19 because I know there's a lot of people and we're on a short 20 time. But if I could enter the Resolution that we passed into 21 the record for the, for the Commission, I would appreciate it. 22 Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Brubaker. 24 MS. BRUBAKER: Chairman, it would be my 25 recommendation that we have that marked, identified as our FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 29 1 first exhibit for the hearing. It's my recommendation that for 2 all exhibits that are identified and marked by the speakers 3 today that they be numbered. However, it is also my 4 recommendation not to move them into the record at this time in 5 order to afford all parties to this proceeding an opportunity 6 to review all of those documents. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: So this will be marked for 8 identification purposes as Exhibit Number 1. 9 MS. BRUBAKER: Number 1. 10 (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.) 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 12 Commissioners, do you have any questions for Mayor 13 Burgess? 14 MR. BURGESS: I'd just like to say thank you very 15 much. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Commissioner Argenziano. 17 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Just a quick question. I 18 don't know if there are other people here from the City of 19 Homestead, but how do -- how does the population or the 20 citizenry of your city, have you heard from them on your 21 Resolution? 22 MR. BURGESS: We had a hearing, well, we opened it up 23 at our council meeting for the hearing when we passed the 24 Resolution, and we had nobody with a negative view towards it 25 show up at the council meeting. We did have several people FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 30 1 that had positive views. And I think as a whole economically 2 and everything that it could do for us down there, I believe 3 the entire community -- or let me not say the entire, but the 4 majority of the community is in favor of it with what they 5 think it can bring us down there in the southern end. And the 6 demand that we have, as some of you may not know, we are the 7 largest growing city of that size. So we've got a lot of 8 demand going for power and stuff down there. And we've got our 9 own power system, but we also buy from FP&L and they run half 10 of the city. So we're looking forward to having quite a bit 11 more demand down there too that we're going to need to satisfy, 12 and we think that this will help us also; not just us, the 13 entire state and nation. So thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: One moment. Thank you so kindly. 16 Commissioners? 17 Next we'll have Mr. Sylvester Jackson from -- 18 Mr. Krasowski. 19 MR. KRASOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering, in 20 light of the presentation by FP&L, if I as an Intervenor might 21 make a brief comment prior to the public speaking so the public 22 can understand that there are people that have differing views 23 and are pursuing the process so as to determine whether or not 24 this project is the best option available. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Let me do this, Mr. Krasowski. Let FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 31 1 me finish hearing from our governmental officials, and at that 2 point in time I can hear from legal and I'll get back with you 3 at that point in time. Okay? 4 MR. KRASOWSKI: I just said what I wanted to say, so. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You said what you wanted to say? 6 MR. KRASOWSKI: Yeah. So thank you very much. I 7 just wanted to make sure the public knew there were people here 8 that were not in agreement with those statements. Thank you. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Then you've been very efficient. 10 Thank you for your efficiency. (Laughter.) Brevity is 11 appreciated. 12 Next we'll hear from Sylvester Jackson from the 13 mayor's office at Florida City. 14 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and 15 Commissioners. My name is Sylvester Jackson. I'm representing 16 Mayor Wallace and our Commissioners of the City of Florida 17 City, sister city actually to Homestead. We're a little bit 18 closer actually to FP&L and we have considered FP&L without 19 question a great community partner for us. They have provided, 20 I think -- and the actual structure that we've tried to 21 establish with them and the relationship has been more of a 22 public/private type of partnership. We have found that they 23 have been very community oriented, they have provided a lot of 24 insight to us and the customers as well. They've been 25 providing a lot of projects and assistance in various FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 32 1 facilities that we have within our city. We're quite 2 encouraged, I think, by the new endeavor actually for Turkey 3 Point, and I think they bring something that is very necessary, 4 as they've already communicated to you in their presentation. 5 So our city without question, we feel comfortable and we're 6 encouraged by the new endeavor of enhancing Turkey Point at 7 this time. And I don't want to extend any longer comments than 8 necessary. I'm sure, as I said earlier, a lot of people want 9 to speak as well. And I thank you for the opportunity to, for 10 us to at least speak before you today. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: One moment, please. 12 Commissioner Argenziano. 13 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Yes. Mr. Jackson, just the 14 same question, have you had a public hearing or have you heard 15 from the citizens of your city? 16 MR. JACKSON: The good thing about FP&L, we have 17 found that they appear before our Commission on numerous 18 occasions. They came to us and presented their Turkey Point 19 project, as a matter of fact. And the citizens in attendance, 20 as we find in all of our city commission meetings, were not 21 negative in any way about the actual presentation that they 22 made to us. 23 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Jackson. 25 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 33 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Next we'll ask Horace Feliu, the 2 Mayor of South Miami. And please forgive me if I mispronounce 3 your name. It wasn't my pronouncing. It was the writing that 4 I saw before. 5 MR. FELIU: You were very close. It's Feliu. 6 Thank you, Mr. Chair and esteemed Commissioners. 7 Thank you for coming down here and taking time from your busy 8 schedules to listen to the public. 9 About two years ago I sponsored a Resolution in the 10 City of South Miami, which basically is the Freedom From Fossil 11 Fuels Acts. We requested from our county officials, our state 12 legislators and our federal government to do their part in 13 freeing ourselves from the use of fossil fuels and at the same 14 time create a type of situation or incentives whereby we 15 eliminate the greenhouse effects and carbon-based products that 16 contaminate our environment. So this is right in line with 17 exactly what we had in mind. We know it's a clean energy 18 source. FP&L has been an environmentally-friendly corporate 19 neighbor to all of us, and I'm here just to speak on that and 20 just basically let you know how we feel about it. 21 We realize that there's issues regarding the use of 22 water and everything else, but that is being addressed. FP&L 23 has done their homework. I've listened carefully to their 24 presentation at the county level, which was passed pretty much 25 unanimously, and I'm in favor of this product -- of this FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 34 1 project. Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. One moment, please. 3 Commissioner Argenziano. 4 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Same question, have you 5 heard from the citizens of your city of South Miami? 6 MR. FELIU: Basically when I found out about it it 7 was in the paper. And we always have public discussions at the 8 commission meetings, and no one has ever spoken against this 9 project. And we're very close to that Turkey Point location. 10 We're in South Miami. 11 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 12 MR. FELIU: You're welcome. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Brubaker, these were all the 14 names I had so far for our public officials. Are there any 15 other additional public officials whose names I did not have? 16 MS. BRUBAKER: I don't have any indicated, so. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. At this point in time would 18 you please call the first witness, please? 19 MS. BRUBAKER: Certainly. And please let me 20 apologize in advance if I mispronounce your name. My 21 apologies. One thing we've found very effective in the past is 22 I will call three names in a row just to let you know who's 23 kind of next up to bat, so to speak, and that way there's no 24 excessive delay between calling names. And with that, the 25 first three people to speak in the order I provide the names FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 35 1 are Onil Maruri, Johennys Leiva and Ignacio Quirch. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And please help us, if your name 3 was not pronounced properly, please help us. 4 MS. BRUBAKER: Yeah. If, if you would also, if it's 5 perhaps not a common last name or name, if you could spell it 6 for the benefit of our court reporter and also just briefly 7 provide your address for the record. 8 Whereupon, 9 ONIL MARURI 10 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 11 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 12 DIRECT STATEMENT 13 MR. MARURI: No problem. My name is Onil Maruri. 14 That's O-N-I-L M-A-R-U-R-I. Address is 8025 Southwest 13th 15 Terrace, Miami, Florida 33144. Anything else? 16 Well, it's a great surprise to be number one. I 17 didn't think I was going to be the first one to speak, and I 18 believe I might be the youngest in the house today. That is 19 wonderful. 20 First, I wanted to start by saying good afternoon, 21 ladies and gentlemen and members of the audience, and, of 22 course, members of the Commission. I am a member of the South 23 Florida community. Like I said, I live here in South Florida 24 and Miami. I am a third-year student at Florida International 25 University, and I believe that nuclear power is the right way FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 36 1 of going. My studies in the university are of business 2 management and also environmental studies, so I'm very familiar 3 with the environment. And I understand that there are some 4 views that are different and I will be more than happy to 5 listen to them, because I believe, as Florida Power & Light, we 6 always like to listen to all of the views. 7 I represent several leading web sites in the 8 automotive industry, and I'm here mostly to talk about that. 9 If I'm not mistaken, I believe I have two minutes to talk. Is 10 that correct? I don't see a timer anywhere, but I believe it 11 is about two minutes. 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Two minutes, yes, sir. 13 MR. MARURI: Okay. 14 CHAIRMAN CARTER: We don't want to be blatantly 15 obvious, but we want everybody to have an opportunity to speak. 16 So, yes, sir. 17 MR. MARURI: Those websites are HondaSpace.com and 18 FordSpace.com, which have a strong following here in South 19 Florida. I'm in favor of clean, secure and low-cost nuclear 20 energy because, of course, we have this growth in demand in 21 Florida. And as I believe was said before, about 85,000 new 22 clients per year, I believe that's great growth and that we 23 certainly need to address that. Another reason would be that I 24 believe that there's this new generation coming for the 25 electric car, and that's my main point of speech here. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 37 1 I have here an image of the Chevy Volt. And if I 2 pass this around, it's in Spanish, so I don't know how much 3 help it would be. But this is a car that's in the works by 4 General Motors and it's a green electric car. And my big 5 concern is that in the future this car, which is set to start 6 production in the year 2010, this is less than two years from 7 now, in the future when this car starts production, what's 8 going to happen in Florida if we have this growth in demand by 9 consumers, by 85,000 new customers per year, and then we have 10 this influx of cars into the state? And I'm concerned that 11 prices of electricity might go up affecting customers. We know 12 that today -- in the last month oil hit a record price of $100 13 a barrel. It's very concerning because a lot of customers will 14 in a blink shift over to electric cars because they're cheaper, 15 and my concern is that that will drive the price of electricity 16 for customers in the entire state. That would affect millions 17 of customers just because of this new addition of possibly an 18 electric car and of high oil prices. 19 Toyota and other companies have also taken notice of 20 this and they're also in the works of similar cars, and it's 21 concerning when you have over 60,000 of these cars which are 22 set to enter the market the first year alone. This is 23 according to Bloomberg reporting on the news from General 24 Motors. This could be found on their website in the reportings 25 for August of 2007. This is just one car. There's going to be FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 38 1 many other cars entering the market in the next five years. 2 Now I'm close to this because obviously I represent 3 many in the automotive industry, mostly consumers from these 4 websites I mentioned. Also, among the options I believe are 5 available, nuclear power seems to be the cheapest and the 6 cleanest to produce. I understand that coal is another option, 7 but definitely it's not as clean and is possibly much more 8 expensive. 9 I did my research on Florida Power & Light and I 10 believe that they seem to be a very green company and that they 11 were recently named, if I'm not mistaken, the utility of the 12 year by an industry magazine. I thought that was something 13 good to recognize because it definitely sets them apart from 14 any other electric companies, and I believe that's important 15 because we're dealing with somebody that's trusted by the 16 industry. 17 I believe that I would say yes to nuclear power 18 because it's important to have reliable electricity, especially 19 when we have an increased need, and I believe that from a 20 younger generation, my generation, the X generation, I believe 21 it's important for us to also have power available for our 22 future for our growth, and I see this new generation coming of 23 the electric car, B1 (phonetic), and I believe that it's 24 important for me to voice my views. Thank you very much for 25 your time and I appreciate it. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 39 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Thank you very much. 2 Would you hold for a moment, please, just in case? 3 MR. MARURI: Of course. 4 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. I mean, 5 you're never too young to participate. That's what democracy 6 is all about, and we sincerely appreciate you participating. 7 Commissioners, any questions? 8 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Just bravo for 9 participating in your government. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank for throwing this up, your 11 research, and just keep on. In fact, probably, staff, would 12 you give him information so he could forward those website 13 addresses because I missed them? But you can just get the web 14 site addresses to them. Thank you so kindly. 15 MR. MARURI: You're welcome. Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Mr. Krasowski, do you have a 17 question? 18 MR. KRASOWSKI: I would like to -- is this on? I 19 can't tell if it's on. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Yes, sir. We can hear you fine. 21 MR. KRASOWSKI: Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You're recognized. 23 MR. KRASOWSKI: I would like to ask the gentleman a 24 question, if I may. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You're recognized. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 40 1 CROSS EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 3 Q Okay. Sir, and I apologize for not remembering your 4 name, but I was curious to know if you are being paid or 5 compensated by anyone to be here this evening. 6 A I am not. I can tell you that in my web sites we 7 support the members of the community. A lot of these members 8 are drivers of cars, and I believe that I'm voicing their 9 concern because I see a new generation of automobiles. No, I'm 10 not being paid by anyone to be here today. 11 Q I understand your points. I think they're excellent, 12 excellent information. Also what I'd like to know is do you 13 have any personal financial expectations of benefiting from the 14 building of this plant? 15 A Well, I have concerns. I don't have any benefits in, 16 any direct benefits. I would say I don't own any stock from 17 FPL or anything like that. 18 Q Anything like that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you 19 very much. 20 A You're welcome. 21 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Again, thank you so much for 22 participating. Thank you. 23 Ms. Brubaker. 24 MS. BRUBAKER: Johennys Leiva. 25 MS. LEIVA: I have to waddle. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 41 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: That's all right. Waddling is 2 appreciated. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MS. LEIVA: Two weeks to go, so waddling is good. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Please spell your name for us. 6 Whereupon, 7 JOHENNYS LEIVA 8 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 9 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 10 DIRECT STATEMENT 11 MS. LEIVA: Yes. It's Johennys, J-O-H-E-N-N-Y-S, 12 last name is Leiva, L-E-I-V-A. Address is 6175 Northwest 167 13 Street, Unit G2, Miami, Florida 33015. 14 I basically came here to support FPL. They were an 15 integral part of my startup business. I own Empire Mortgage 16 Brokers and Lenders. When I originally opened my company I 17 rented at a commercial site, so a lot of the suggestions that 18 FPL gave me for energy conservation I wasn't ready to implement 19 as it was going to be costly for me and not beneficial because 20 I didn't own the site. I currently do own, and I've already 21 implemented a lot of the original suggestions that they gave me 22 in my energy study. I want them to come back out because the 23 location is not the same to see if they have any additional 24 suggestions that I can conserve energy, do my part. 25 I really do believe that this is what we need to do FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 42 1 because ten years from now when we don't have enough power to 2 service the growing community, that's going to impact my 3 business. And this is going, this nuclear power plant is going 4 to allow us to keep our costs low. That means, yes, it does 5 impact my business. I also believe in the go green, so this 6 works. It's a win-win. I really don't have anything further 7 to say. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 9 MS. LEIVA: Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: One moment before you go. 11 Commissioners, do we have any questions? 12 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Mr. Krasowski, I see you heading to 14 the mike. You are recognized, sir. 15 MR. KRASOWSKI: Thank you. I want to be fair to all 16 speakers. 17 CROSS EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 19 Q Ma'am, are you being paid or compensated by anyone to 20 be here? 21 A No. I came, I came on my own recognizance. 22 Q And on your comments, I understand your relationship 23 to what you believe to benefit from, if anything. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Thank you very much. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 43 1 A Okay. Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 3 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Ignacio Quirch. 4 The next three after that will be Nancy Lee, Alan Farago and 5 Mary Olsen. 6 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And please help us with pronouncing 7 your name. 8 Whereupon, 9 IGNACIO QUIRCH 10 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 11 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 12 DIRECT STATEMENT 13 MR. QUIRCH: My name is Ignacio, that's 14 I-G-N-A-C-I-O. Last name Quirch, Q-U-I-R-C-H. Address is 4940 15 Southwest 77th Street, Miami, Florida 33143. 16 I came here on my own accord. I'm not being paid by 17 anyone to be here. I run a family business, me and my 18 brothers, my father. We've been in business for 45 years now. 19 We have a fleet of over 100 tractor-trailers going throughout 20 the State of Florida. And as we all know here, fuel is killing 21 every business. It's killing everyone. We rely way too much 22 on fossil fuels. My -- our fuel bills have increased 23 200 percent, which affects the food that everyone is eating 24 because we are food distributors. It affects everyone day to 25 day. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 44 1 Biofuels I don't think is the future either. Corn is 2 used for biofuels. Corn is used to feed cattle, poultry, pigs, 3 everything. So biofuels made with corn do not help. 4 We need something clean, we need something that's 5 going to last. Nuclear power is going to last. We are going 6 to run out of fossil fuels one day, fifty years, 100 years from 7 now, so we cannot abuse on those fossil fuels. We need to use 8 alternate fuels. Basically that's all I've got. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. 10 Commissioners? And I think you already answered 11 Mr. Krasowski's questions. Thank you so kindly. 12 Ms. Brubaker. 13 MS. BRUBAKER: Nancy Lee. Excuse me. Nancy Lee. 14 Whereupon, 15 NANCY LEE 16 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 17 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 18 DIRECT STATEMENT 19 MS. LEE: Hi. I'm Nancy Lee. Do I have to give my 20 address? 21 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Give us your name again. 22 MS. LEE: Nancy Lee. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Yes, ma'am, if you wouldn't 24 mind. 25 MS. LEE: 20448 Northeast 34th Court, Aventura; as FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 45 1 far in Dade County as you can get from this plant. 2 You asked us to comment here, but Florida Power & 3 Light's plan is like Jell-o. How can we comment on something 4 when we don't know the details, the real costs? When the costs 5 are firmed up, maybe we can comment intelligently. Because 6 everyone is saying it's cheap. We don't really know that it's 7 cheap because we don't know how much it's going to cost. 8 I feel like my hands are tied. You are a very young 9 group of people. I was part of the citizens that fought Shore 10 Power Plant in New York. I watched the horrors of Chernobyl on 11 TV. The benefits do not outweigh the risks as far as I'm 12 concerned. This is not bringing in enough energy for the cost, 13 and safety is a cost. Having a long pipe miles long that could 14 be blown up doesn't make me feel safe. Safe -- and talk about 15 safe, the man from Florida Power & Light said it was safe. 16 They had six guards caught sleeping by the Nuclear Regulatory 17 Commission, they had a hole drilled in a cooling pipe, and they 18 had a $100,000 reward for that. You know, that doesn't make me 19 feel safe, and I thank God I don't live in Homestead or Florida 20 City. 21 I want you to think of our checkbooks. Steve 22 Seibert, I think he was the head of DEP or DCA, proposes that 23 every house should have solar panels on it now, and I think 24 that's a really good idea. I don't think we have concentrated 25 on conservation. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 46 1 The pipe -- because of where this power plant is next 2 to the park you can't get the water from the water right in 3 front of it so you have to pipe the water in. They want to 4 bring the water possibly 26 miles in a pipe from Virginia Key, 5 and that's reused water. Now this pipe -- Katy Sorensen, the 6 County Commissioner asked how much it would cost, and they said 7 about $600 million for the pipe. Okay. So we have to pay for 8 the pipe, then we have to pay for the pumping, but we don't 9 know that they're going to actually use this pipe because they 10 don't really have a plan yet. So we don't know where they're 11 getting -- what is it 90,000 gallons, 90 million gallons a day 12 that they're going to use of water. And Katy Sorensen said 13 nuclear power, that the nuclear power is using one natural 14 resource to save on another. And using up that much water when 15 we have such a bad water problem doesn't make sense to me. 16 So we don't how much the pumping is going to cost, we 17 don't know how much the pipe is going to cost. They could go 18 out past the reef to the ocean, which would be about a 13-mile 19 pipe. Again, you know, leaving 13 miles of pipe for terrorists 20 to blow up, I'm not really feeling safe. 21 They have to increase the grade 200, for 200, 250 22 acres by 20 feet above sea level because this is in lowlands. 23 If you figure on $30 a cubic yard for fill, that's two or three 24 hundred thousand dollars just to fill to start building the 25 plant. So I don't know where all this cheap energy is coming FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 47 1 from. Okay. Everyone is putting this forth as the cheap way. 2 Well, for me it's not. I think it's the dangerous way. And I 3 know that in Germany they're stopping using nuclear power and I 4 know that they're stopping in a lot of different places and I 5 don't think we should be starting again. I'm going to give you 6 my little map here. And thank you all. You're all so young. 7 You don't know about what we went through. 8 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Mr. Chairman. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: One moment, please. One moment, 10 please. 11 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: I just want to thank you 12 for telling me I look so young. My son just turned 35, so I 13 really appreciate it. Maybe you just can't see me from there. 14 (Laughter.) 15 MS. LEE: No. I've seen you many times. 16 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: One moment before you leave. Mr. 18 Ballinger. You said you wanted to give us a document? 19 MS. LEE: It's a map with a 25-mile and a 10-mile 20 circle drawn around it so you can see how much population is 21 being affected by the plant and you can see the -- I drew in 22 the -- if they use this pipe, I drew the pipe in where it would 23 go from and to. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You don't mind if we keep it? 25 MS. LEE: Oh, that's what I want you to do. I have FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 48 1 it on my computer. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 3 Commissioners, any questions? One moment, please. 4 I'm sure Mr. Krasowski wants to ask you his standard two 5 questions. 6 MR. KRASOWSKI: Generic questions. 7 CROSS EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 9 Q Good afternoon, ma'am. Are you being compensated or 10 paid by anyone to be here today? 11 A No. 12 Q No. Okay. And do you foresee any benefit, personal 13 financial benefit from the building of this plant? 14 A No. 15 Q Okay. Thanks. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: This for identification purposes 17 will be Exhibit Number 2, for identification purposes only. 18 (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.) 19 Ms. Brubaker. 20 MS. BRUBAKER: Alan Farago, please. 21 Whereupon, 22 ALAN FARAGO 23 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 24 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 25 DIRECT STATEMENT FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 49 1 MR. FARAGO: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. My name is 2 Alan Farago, 534 Menendez Avenue in Coral Gables. 3 This is the first time I've, I've ever testified 4 before the Public Service Commission, and it's an interesting 5 experience, an educational one as well. Most of what I do as 6 an environmental advocate is before the County, and what, what 7 I'd like to say just from the outset is to make sure that on 8 the record at least you know that the, that the County approval 9 of the special exemption for FPL recently was highly contested 10 and quite controversial. 11 I don't think you'll find any disagreement from any, 12 anyone in the audience that we need to lessen our dependence on 13 foreign sources of oil for our national security and for our 14 economy. But when FP&L represents that nuclear is, is the 15 lowest and the most affordable source of energy, lowest cost 16 and most affordable source of energy, I really think that, you 17 know, we have to question very hard whether or not we have 18 exhausted every last measure to conserve energy in the State of 19 Florida because of the inherent risks in nuclear power. 20 This site, Turkey Point, it's true it does have 21 nuclear capacity there today, but it will be a very highly 22 contested site as well through the entire permitting process. 23 You as the PSC, I think, could do the State of Florida and 24 ratepayers a great favor if you would interrogate Florida's 25 utilities on the issue of conservation and to ask the Florida FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 50 1 Legislature to ensure that every single watt of saved energy is 2 wrung not from the ratepayers, not just, you know, not just, 3 you know, individual citizens coming up here, but doing what 4 California is doing, for instance, as reported on the front 5 page center story in the Wall Street Journal today. 6 The article says, "Utilities amp up push to slash 7 energy use," and talks about California policymakers setting 8 the most ambitious conservation targets in the United States. 9 The three -- it states three major investor-owned electric 10 utilities were told last summer to reduce their combined energy 11 use by the equivalent of three power plants to earn big bonuses 12 or face the possibility of big penalties if they fail. 13 Essentially what California is trying to do is to incentivize 14 utilities to lower the production of energy through 15 conservation. And I think that the best we can do for Florida, 16 given the risks of nuclear power, is to insist that every last 17 watt of energy be wrung out of the system in terms of 18 conservation before embarking on sort of this risky strategy to 19 shoehorn more nuclear power into Florida. 20 It gets to the point, I think, of -- and, again, I'm 21 new to a lot of this, to the nuclear power plant siting issue 22 of you needing to evaluate renewable energy sources and 23 technologies as well as conservation measures and to ensure 24 that they're utilized to the extent reasonably available. And 25 I think that there will be a lot of argument about what is, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 51 1 what constitutes being reasonably available. I'm not sure that 2 nuclear power is sort of a reasonable alternative at this 3 point, given the fact that the State of Florida has not 4 exhausted its opportunities for conservation and for saving 5 money for ratepayers and also saving many, many unanticipated 6 costs for putting a nuclear power plant at sea level in the age 7 of sea level rise. So thank you very much. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Would you 9 wait for a moment, please? 10 MR. FARAGO: Yeah. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Commissioners, any questions? 12 Mr. Krasowski. One moment. Commissioner Argenziano. 13 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Maybe just a quick one. 14 What I'm hearing from you is I think most of your opposition is 15 the planning, the site planning; is that correct? 16 MR. FARAGO: Most of my opposition is to the use of 17 nuclear power before the exhaustion of every single 18 conservation measure as a matter of state policy. And I 19 believe that the Florida utilities -- and FPL, of course, is a 20 major corporation. It knows perfectly well what's going on in 21 California. It, along with other Florida utilities, has 22 resisted reform in terms of how companies might be compensated 23 in terms of reducing power production as opposed to expanding 24 power production. So, in other words, I think that the State 25 of Florida has a long way to go, and that really the only way FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 52 1 to get there is for you to tell the utilities, you know what, 2 it may be something that we have to consider in the future, but 3 let's do everything we can right now to get you guys to follow 4 the line of conservation as a matter of how you generate 5 corporate profits. 6 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Commissioner Skop. 8 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And just 9 in contrast, I do appreciate the argument for conservation. 10 How do you contrast that argument in the face of the explosive 11 growth that we have in Florida? 12 MR. FARAGO: Well, I think that California also had 13 explosive growth, and I think California was able to manage 14 through lots of crises with respect to energy policy over the 15 last two or three decades without having to build anymore new 16 nuclear power plants. 17 I think that at the end of the day almost anything is 18 preferable to having nuclear power, except losing the planet. 19 So as an environmentalist, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't 20 write nuclear power off the books, but I certainly would say 21 that distributing power generation to consumers, being more 22 proactive in terms of allowing net metering and those kinds of 23 things -- I mean, we don't know as citizens in the State of 24 Florida what we can do because we are in a straight jacket by 25 the utilities that are very much like Detroit, by the way, in FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 53 1 terms of advocating, you know, this whole issue of, of growth 2 at any cost, you know, continuous expansion of power 3 production. And what the State of Florida can do is set 4 policies that reward these utilities for actually slashing 5 their production of energy without affecting our standard of 6 living. Personally I would rather have, I would rather have 7 less access to electricity throughout 24/7 than to deal with 8 the nuclear, the growth of the nuclear industry in a place that 9 is inappropriate. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you. And just as a 12 follow-up, I noticed you mentioned net metering. And I just 13 wanted to briefly respond as a point of information that this 14 Commission recently passed a proposed rule for interconnection 15 and net metering which addresses a lot of the distributed 16 generation issues that you've mentioned. So the state is 17 working on those issues. 18 MR. FARAGO: I know the State of Florida is working 19 very hard on all these issues, but this is a big one. 20 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Commissioners, any? 22 Mr. Krasowski. One moment, please, sir. 23 CROSS EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 25 Q Sir, are you being paid or compensated by anyone to FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 54 1 be here today? 2 A No. 3 Q And then do you have any personal financial 4 expectation of benefiting from the building of this plant or do 5 you have any expectation of being funded by, by anyone who 6 would be supporting your activities regarding any opposition to 7 this plant? 8 A No. 9 Q Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you very much. 11 Ms. Brubaker. 12 MS. BRUBAKER: Next to speak is Mary Olsen. The next 13 three speakers after are -- 14 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Hold on. Wait one second. Mary? 15 MS. BRUBAKER: Olsen. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Mary Olsen. Thank you. 17 MS. BRUBAKER: Next will be Peter Sipp, Dawn 18 Shirreffs and Agustin Rodriguez. 19 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Olsen, you're recognized. 20 Whereupon, 21 MARY OLSEN 22 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 23 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 24 DIRECT STATEMENT 25 MS. OLSEN: Good afternoon. I'm Mary Olsen, and I'm FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 55 1 the Southeast Regional Coordinator for an organization called 2 Nuclear Information and Resource Service. We are an 3 educational organization with members in all 50 states, so I'm 4 here on behalf of our members in Florida. And, yes, I am paid 5 and, yes, I believe my members will benefit if this nuclear 6 power plant proposal is rejected, but I think it will be mainly 7 in their health, their safety and quality of life. So I'm here 8 to express their view that there is no need for this nuclear 9 power plant at this time. We have plenty of power here right 10 now and, in fact, there will be no need later. 11 I want to correct the record. Nuclear power is not 12 emissions free. There is continuous or fairly continuous 13 radioactive emissions to air, to water and continuous 14 production of radioactive waste. There is also considerable 15 dependence on fossil fuels and therefore release of greenhouse 16 gases primarily in the front end of the fuel cycle. But you 17 can't operate a reactor without fuel. So as long as we're 18 talking about uranium, which is what Florida Power & Light is 19 talking about, although it may not be in Florida, there are 20 considerable CO2 impacts from nuclear power. It is not 21 emissions free. 22 I want to appreciate the previous speaker's points. 23 I support them completely. While we're talking about fuel 24 diversification in this case, it disturbs me that we're kind 25 of -- quite frankly, I think we're stuck in a paradigm and a FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 56 1 frame in a way of, you know, the mandate that you have, the 2 rules that you're following predate the era we're living in. 3 And I hope that you're going to be able to figure out how to 4 shift your mandate enough to be able to respond to the era 5 we're living in because, believe me, if you don't, we're all in 6 trouble. 7 So I'd like to think that you would consider 8 fuel-free technologies as part of fuel diversification. The 9 wind is not a fuel per se, the sun is not a fuel per se, the 10 Gulf Stream is not a fuel per se. Those are diversifications 11 of an energy base for this state that are very viable. 12 Just this week the New York Times' science section 13 reports experts once again debating, but no debate that the 14 ocean is rising. They all agree the next ten years are 15 crucial. You cannot put off for another 60 years the impact -- 16 the actions that could prevent the impact 60 years out. And 17 the new numbers are 2- to 7-foot rise in the ocean. If that's 18 not a driver for the public interest in this state, I don't 19 know what is. Your decisions today about the appropriate use 20 of consumer money is going to drive the outcome of that 21 equation. And these reactors that are being proposed have zero 22 impact on that. They will not contribute to greenhouse gas 23 reduction in the next ten years. Sorry. They won't even be 24 built that quick. So you will be sacrificing the possibility 25 to affect that outcome with an approval of something that's not FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 57 1 needed in order to address that outcome. And nuclear power 2 cannot address that outcome now and it won't be able to address 3 it later because, in fact, if that outcome is shifted, it's 4 because your body and other bodies invest significantly in 5 energy efficiency, in conservation. 6 It is seven to ten times more cost-effective to 7 prevent the use of power than to build new generating capacity. 8 This country has the ability to go, not only to half, but if we 9 match what Japan does for energy per dollar of GDP one-third, 10 we could cut two-thirds of our power if we got really smart 11 about it. So we have to stop using the words conservation 12 efficiency, start talking smart, prudent, reliable, stable in 13 relation to efficiency. 14 Okay. I'm going to keep my comments short. I have a 15 couple of more things to add. I am going to be offering a 16 written statement with some supporting documents in your 17 written comment section. 18 But I think particularly in terms of the 19 justification for collecting money from the ratepayer, from the 20 consumer in the near future, you have only one agenda item: 21 Are you going to turn around the climate crisis or not? How is 22 Florida Power & Light building two new nuclear power reactors 23 that don't come online in the next ten years going to do that? 24 How do you justify that? Because they're using this as a 25 justification. If you privilege their proposal because they're FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 58 1 claiming that they're CO2 free, they're claiming they're going 2 to help the climate, make them substantiate it. Because I'm 3 here to tell you you're going to have to substantiate it. 4 Okay. Other possible things that you should 5 consider. This is just a quick laundry list. The Barnwell 6 so-called low-level radioactive waste site where they're 7 currently shipping the so-called low-level waste will be 8 closing June 1st of this year. Where are they going to send 9 their so-called low-level waste? 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Excuse me. We're having trouble 11 hearing you. Slow it down a little bit. 12 MS. OLSEN: I'm sorry. Okay. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Passion is appreciated, but slow it 14 down a little bit. We want to hear you. Okay? 15 MS. OLSEN: Okay. All right. This is a little 16 laundry list of issues. And they're ones that are kind of way 17 below the radar screen, so I'm bringing them to you. 18 The so-called low-level waste that's generated by 19 nuclear power plants and will be for these new units proposed, 20 the so-called low-level waste goes to a place right now in 21 South Carolina called Barnwell. It's a shallow landfill trench 22 style dump. It's closing June 1st this year. So it's a big 23 question nationwide what's going to happen to that stuff 24 because it's really the only site that takes the full spectrum. 25 That's a cost consideration. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 59 1 Personally the radiation standards should always be 2 looked at as a privilege. The level of protection provided for 3 radiation is a fraction -- as a matter of fact, it's thousands 4 of times less than what is provided for toxic chemicals. I 5 already mentioned the emissions, but they are continuous and a 6 real cost if the reliability ever catches up. You have to 7 consider that. 8 And, finally, the high-level nuclear waste, the 9 irradiated fuel is sitting at the FPL site. There's a 10 tremendous push from the industry to move it. But where are 11 they going to take it? There is no place for it to go. It has 12 sat there since they started making it. I really believe it's 13 incumbent upon state officials to begin considering the 14 permanence of high-level nuclear waste as an ongoing cost in 15 this state because there is no confidence at the Nuclear 16 Regulatory Commission either in a high-level nuclear waste 17 plan. They are pushing for a new plan, but there isn't one 18 right now. 19 And finally in terms of costs, the largest industrial 20 accident ever was the explosion of the Chernobyl reactor in 21 1986. Some of you were children at that time. I'm not going 22 to go into all the details, but I need you to know that in the 23 act in the United States that was passed to make insurance 24 possible for nuclear plants since the commercial industry, 25 insurance industry would not touch nuclear plants, Mr. Price FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 60 1 and Mr. Anderson passed the Price-Anderson Act. It was renewed 2 in 2004 in the Energy Policy Act. But in the definition 3 section it says that if it's an act of war or an enemy of the 4 state, there is no Price-Anderson Act -- completely exempted. 5 So as you know, the Price-Anderson Act provides for all 6 utility, you know, nuclear reactor owners nationwide to pay 7 into the fund that would cover up to $10 billion of up-front 8 costs. Beyond that it's capped. Actually maybe they raised it 9 to 11 or 12, but it's within that range. So, you know, beyond 10 that it's capped and ostensibly the taxpayer or the victim 11 would have to pay. But these -- this has happened. This is 12 not a hypothetical maybe. This has happened. And you as a 13 regulatory body need to know that you've got zero insurance if 14 anybody who is identified as an enemy of the state were to be 15 the one to maliciously act against a nuclear reactor, and that 16 applies to your current units and it would apply to the new 17 units as well. 18 So the final thing I have to offer you, and I will 19 include in my written comment, is that there is some hope on 20 the, on the horizon. The good news is that we got in this mess 21 because of unsustainable things like making waste we don't know 22 what to do with and putting carbon in the atmosphere. So if we 23 turn this big ship around, we will do so because we are 24 adopting sustainable practices. And there's a marvelous first 25 look at a scenario of what that would look like that's really FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 61 1 complete called Carbon Free, Nuclear Free: A Road Map for U.S. 2 Energy Policy. And, as I say, I will submit that with my 3 written testimony. But I think it's very, very important for 4 people to know and understand that we're not just talking about 5 problems. We're also talking about solutions. And we're 6 asking and challenging you to find solutions that will actually 7 deliver the goods because this proposal will do nothing. Thank 8 you. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Would you 10 remain there for a moment, please? Commissioners, any 11 questions? Mr. Krasowski, one moment, please. 12 Commissioner Skop. 13 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank 14 you for appearing today. I think that you've raised some 15 excellent points. 16 Just in the interest of fairness, and I do think it's 17 a fair question because it appears to be a recurring theme, but 18 I've heard Chernobyl mentioned at least twice now, and I was 19 just wondering whether you'd be familiar with the differences 20 between Russian and U.S. reactor design technology and also the 21 differences in the reactor physics? 22 MS. OLSEN: I can comment. I'm not a physicist, but 23 I'd be more than happy. I should have mentioned at the offset, 24 my organization, and I will answer your question, but my 25 organization is, as we say in our name, Information and FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 62 1 Resource Service. And part of our resource is written 2 information and part of it is knowing experts from across the 3 spectrum, independent people as well as people within the 4 industry. So part of my job is to refer people to proper 5 expertise. So I'm not going to pretend to be a physicist for 6 you. 7 But, yes, there is a difference between the Soviet 8 style reactor -- the Chernobyl reactor was inside the Soviet 9 Union at the time the accident happened. And one of the 10 differences is that some U.S. reactors, not all, have a major 11 structure around the reactor pressure vessel which is called 12 the containment structure. Unfortunately, we have over 50 13 reactors in the United States that are boiling water reactors 14 that do not have that type of containment. So the comparison 15 breaks down a little bit, you know, in terms of saying the U.S. 16 is different. 17 Yes, the reactor design is significantly different. 18 They had a, instead of a liquid around the uranium that was 19 fissioning they had graphite, which, by the way, is the new 20 design for pebble bed reactors, if you hear of that one. It's 21 a graphite moderated reactor as well. So we're considering 22 those for the United States now. But at that time it was an 23 explosion, there's still controversy was it a nuclear 24 explosion, in which case it was good there was no containment 25 because there were three reactors right next-door. A nuclear FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 63 1 explosion can't be contained. They might have had four times 2 the radiological consequences if it had had containment with a 3 nuclear explosion. If it was a chemical explosion -- in either 4 case the graphite started burning, it's combustible, and that 5 was what caused the 14-day plume. There was certainly enormous 6 impact that a United States reactor would not have. However, 7 it was Mohammed ElBaradei, the Secretary of the International 8 Atomic Energy Agency, who went on record exactly seven days 9 after September 11th, on the 18th of September, 2001, and 10 saying that no reactor on the planet, including the United 11 States, could withstand a direct hit by a jumbo jet with a lot 12 of fuel on it. And the consequences, to quote that man, Dr. 13 ElBaradei, would be quote, a Chernobyl. 14 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you. And just, Mr. Chair, 15 as a follow-up. I guess what I was getting at is would you 16 agree that the Russian-based reactor's design would never be 17 licensed in the United States due to its inherent safety 18 concerns? 19 MS. OLSEN: I would agree that we would not license a 20 Chernobyl reactor here. Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Okay. And also with respect to 22 the comment you made with respect to the catastrophic event, I 23 do believe -- are you aware of some other alternate studies 24 that suggest that U.S. reactor design basically could withstand 25 a direct impact from a large Boeing aircraft, I think was used FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 64 1 in the studies, and survive impact with full maximum gross 2 takeoff weight with high air speed and survive the event? I 3 think there's been some additional studies. 4 MS. OLSEN: I would be more than happy to trade 5 studies with you. I'd be very interested in seeing your study, 6 but I can back it with several of my own that indicate 7 different findings. 8 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Yes, ma'am. And I'm not debating 9 which study is correct. I'm just merely suggesting that there 10 are studies which suggest the opposite of what you -- 11 MS. OLSEN: I would like to add one further comment, 12 if I might, on this point, and that is that the irradiated 13 fuel, which is actually the greatest burden of radioactivity 14 cumulative at the site, is not in containment, the irradiated 15 fuel pools. The high-level nuclear waste, the irradiated fuel 16 pools where the fuel that has come out of the reactor core 17 that's millions of times more radioactive than the uranium that 18 went in, that fuel is stored onsite currently because there is 19 no federal program to receive that fuel. And the majority of 20 it in Florida, I believe all of it is in fuel pools. So it's a 21 cumulative backlog of radioactivity. Enormous amounts are not 22 in containment. They are outside. 23 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you very kindly. Would you 25 please remain for a moment, please? FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 65 1 Mr. Krasowski, you're recognized, sir. 2 CROSS EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 4 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Olsen. Pleasure to finally meet 5 you. 6 A Pleasure. 7 Q We've spoken on the phone. 8 A I'd like to give you my written comments before we -- 9 Q Sure. Okay. I appreciate that. You've already 10 mentioned that you are a paid employee of an organization, and 11 I think you spoke to funding, the question on funding. 12 I'd like to ask you about this -- who's the author of 13 the Carbon Free, Nuclear Free document that you're going to be 14 submitting? Who is that? 15 A Dr. Arjun, A-R-J-U-N, Makhijani, M-A-K-H-I-J-A-N-I. 16 And I put it fully in the record because I feel this document 17 is so important for our collective future. 18 Q We agree as Intervenors, we have access to that 19 document as well and plan on presenting it and discussing it in 20 the process of the hearing. But thank you very much for your 21 presence here tonight. Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Mr. Ballinger, that will be marked 23 as Exhibit Number, Exhibit Number 3 for identification 24 purposes. 25 (Exhibit 3 marked for identification.) FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 66 1 Wait. Excuse me, ma'am. Wait a minute. Wait a 2 minute. Hold on. Hold on. We've got an order here. Are you 3 next in line? 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I just wanted to say I also 5 have a question for Ms. Olsen, if at all possible. 6 CHAIRMAN CARTER: No, ma'am. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No? 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I'm sorry. You could probably talk 9 to her afterwards, but we have a proceeding here. We're doing 10 it for the court reporter. We're taking it for -- it's 11 actually going to be an ongoing process. Maybe you were not 12 hear when I opened the hearing and all. I'm sorry. We do not 13 allow that except for the parties. 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No more questions? Okay. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. But, please, 16 ma'am, by the way, if you do have questions pertaining to this, 17 outside there's a green report here and you can put them in 18 writing and we'll take them on as part of our, the record 19 itself. And we appreciate having you here. 20 By the way, there may have been some others that have 21 come in since I made the announcement, and those that have 22 spoken have been sworn. And if you have not been sworn in and 23 you would like to speak at this hearing, when your name is 24 called and you have not been sworn in, please state so and 25 we'll -- it's just a simple matter of me swearing you in for FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 67 1 the record. Okay? 2 MS. BRUBAKER: Mr. Chairman, may I ask a 3 clarification question, if I may, of Ms. Olsen? 4 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Yes, ma'am. Ms. Olsen, are you 5 still here with us? 6 MS. BRUBAKER: Thank you. I note that in addition to 7 the document which you specifically identified, there's also a 8 number of additional materials in the folder that's provided to 9 us. Do you wish all materials to be identified as the exhibit 10 or simply the article that you identified? 11 MS. OLSEN: Quite frankly, I was planning to mail 12 this to you, but I was handing Mr. Krasowski his to save 13 postage. So I would like that all to be considered as a 14 written comment that's coming with supporting documents, which 15 I put in electronically because I thought it would save your 16 support staff time to receive them in that form. 17 MS. BRUBAKER: Okay. So all documents are part of 18 the exhibit? 19 MS. OLSEN: Yes. 20 MS. BRUBAKER: Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN CARTER: So that would be composite 22 Exhibit 3 for identification purposes only. 23 MS. BRUBAKER: Number 3. That's correct. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Ms. Brubaker. 25 MS. BRUBAKER: Next speaker, please, Peter Sipp. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 68 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Say again. 2 MS. BRUBAKER: Peter Sipp. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. 4 Whereupon, 5 PETER SIPP 6 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 7 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 8 DIRECT STATEMENT 9 MR. SIPP: Thank you. I am going to spell my last 10 name. It's Sipp, S-I-P-P. First name is Peter. And my 11 address is 17 Phillips, with two Ls, Road in Burnsville, North 12 Carolina. 13 My mom lives in Naples, and on my way home I wanted 14 to come over and tell you about something that's very exciting. 15 It'll fit the need of several people who have commented on the, 16 one of the long-lasting sources of energy. And right about a 17 month ago I was listening to NPR like I usually do in the 18 morning, and this story was about Florida Atlantic University. 19 They're making a study in the Gulf Stream. And you've -- a 20 couple of you -- okay. And so I want to mention it, I came all 21 the way here to mention it so, so that people can understand 22 that the Gulf Stream has been going by the State of Florida. 23 Florida is really blessed. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Mr. Sipp? Mr. Sipp? 25 MR. SIPP: Yes. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 69 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Would you please address your 2 comments -- we've got the court reporter. She's got to look at 3 you, too. 4 MR. SIPP: Okay. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Excuse me. I mean, we want to get 6 this on the record, so we're here to take testimony. 7 MR. SIPP: Sure. Thanks for helping me get it right. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. 9 MR. SIPP: Sure. So Florida is really fortunate to 10 have the Gulf Stream going by. And in the story the people 11 said that there's enough energy in what they're testing on -- 12 when they get through with the test, they want to put some big 13 ones out on the Gulf Stream. And they say that they can make 14 enough energy the same as three nuclear plants. And so that's 15 something that would go on 24/7. There would be no shutdowns, 16 there would be no danger of any terrorists wanting to blow it 17 up. There would be so many pluses to using that. And then it 18 would be a baseload. It would go on from now until as long as 19 the Gulf Stream is going. Nuclear plants are only good for 40 20 or maybe 50 years and then it's decommissioning. And the 21 radioactive problems just won't be there with the Gulf Stream 22 generator. 23 And, let's see, it sounds like they could go online 24 before Turkey Point would even begin -- before they could even 25 start these could be done. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 70 1 And, also, Florida is the sunshine state. It says so 2 on a whole lot of license plates. (Laughter.) And, and the 3 money that's not spent on the nuclear plants could be put into 4 photovoltaic panels. And would there be enough roofs to put 5 them? Because when I lived in Georgia I witnessed the building 6 of the Plant Vogtle up there. And they told us, oh, yeah, it 7 was going to be too cheap to meter. Well, I didn't add even so 8 much as a night light in my house and my light bill went up 9 three times what it used to be. And so nuclear power is really 10 the Midas touch in reverse, and so it's important that we, that 11 we really get that. And like I said earlier, they're only good 12 for 40 years; whereas, the Gulf Stream will just keep on going. 13 And that's, that's the essence of my, of my comments. Thanks a 14 lot. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Sipp. Would you 16 hold on for one second, please? Thank you so kindly for your 17 participation. 18 Commissioners, do you have any questions? 19 Mr. Krasowski. 20 CROSS EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 22 Q Hello, Mr. Sipp. Mr. Sipp, are you being paid or 23 compensated by anyone to be here today? 24 A I am not. 25 Q Well, thank you very much. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 71 1 A Sure. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you very kindly. 3 MR. SIPP: Sure. I got to remembering that I should 4 mention that you could check with the NPR website, if you 5 wanted to watch the story. It's just a few minutes long. And 6 if you'd like me to, I could send it down to you. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: We'll just have the court reporter 8 to take it -- you saw it today? 9 MR. SIPP: No. No. It was a month ago. Yeah. 10 Right about a month ago. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Mr. Ballinger, just get the 12 information from him so we could put that in the record. Thank 13 you so kindly. Mr. Ballinger will come down and get that from 14 you. 15 Ms. Brubaker. 16 MS. BRUBAKER: Dawn Shirreffs, please. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I'm sorry. The acoustics in here 18 are terrible. Please forgive me, but would you state your name 19 for us, please? 20 Whereupon, 21 DAWN SHIRREFFS 22 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 23 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 24 DIRECT STATEMENT 25 MS. SHIRREFFS: Sure. It's Dawn Shirreffs, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 72 1 S-H-I-R-R-E-F as in Frank, F as in Frank, S as in Sam. I work 2 for Clean Water Action at 190 Ives Dairy Road in Miami, 3 Florida. 4 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Excuse me. I'm so sorry. The 5 court reporter, none of us can hear you. Could you pull the 6 mike a little closer, speak a little slower. 7 MS. SHIRREFFS: Get personal? 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. And start over because -- 9 MS. SHIRREFFS: Sure. It's Dawn Shirreffs, 10 S-H-I-R-R-E-F as in Frank, F as in Frank, S as in Sam, and I 11 work with Clean Water Action at 190 Ives Dairy Road in Miami. 12 I wanted to thank you for coming all the way down here for the 13 opportunity to share our questions and concerns. 14 Clean Water Action is a non-profit organization of 15 more than 50,000 members in the State of Florida who are really 16 concerned about the exorbitant costs and incomplete information 17 and permitting methods being employed in an effort to add two 18 new reactors in South Florida. The water needs of this project 19 and how they will be met are undetermined at this time. It is 20 therefore impossible to project the direct and indirect costs 21 of water supply to Florida Power & Light ratepayers and the 22 community of operation of this nuclear expansion. 23 Amongst other options, Florida Power is examining the 24 installation of a 26-mile pipe to procure reclaimed water from 25 the Virginia Key plant. Cost estimates for that option are FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 73 1 nearly $700 million, not accounted for in FPL's use of the 2 Tennessee Valley Authority's August 2005 study on costs. 3 There are additional concerns about many costs that 4 weren't incorporated, and unfortunately most of that 5 information is confidential when there are answers, and most 6 times in this scenario there are not. One of our major 7 concerns is about the current spent fuel storage pool capacity 8 at Turkey Point. How long until it's necessary that 9 alternative solutions for the storage of spent fuel become 10 necessary? We don't have answers to where we're going to put 11 the fuel. If dry cask storage of spent fuel is planned, what's 12 that going to cost, and have those costs been factored in along 13 with the fuel that will be required to provide those measures? 14 The American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy 15 report released in June of 2007 found that adoption of 16 11 specific policies for enforcement of efficiency and 17 renewable resources that are available in Florida can be 18 implemented to reduce future energy demands by 29 percent in 19 the next 15 years. 20 According to a 2001 study by the United States Energy 21 Information Administration, Florida ranks third in total energy 22 consumption. That's not population, that's energy consumption. 23 Florida Power's achievements in demand-side management 24 nationally are not reflected in the State of Florida where less 25 than 1 percent of its energy is generated from renewables. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 74 1 That information is from the same report. 2 It is critical that the State of Florida demand a 3 commitment and innovation from public utilities on par with 4 efforts being led by private corporate interests to adjust the 5 public need. 6 Florida Power & Light cites Florida's second place 7 ranking in renewable production from the U.S. Department of 8 Energy when hydroelectric and geothermal resources are 9 excluded. This application fails to note the Department of 10 Energy -- the Department of Energy has found that Florida has 11 vast low temperature resources suitable for geothermal heat 12 pumps. This technology is presently available for heating and 13 cooling Florida businesses and residences. This technology can 14 severely lower peak demands, alleviating the need for 15 additional baseload capacity. Restaurants are among the most 16 intense users of energy. Industry pioneers such as McDonald's 17 are currently opening multiple facilities using 18 energy-efficient geothermal technology. In addition to other 19 entities, the University of Central Florida has outfitted three 20 buildings on campus with energy efficient technologies. The 21 Public Service Commission cannot responsibly approve this 22 application when such serious cost questions about water 23 supply, waste disposal, waste storage, fill materials and plant 24 design are likely to remain unanswered for the foreseeable 25 future. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 75 1 Florida Statutes require that Florida, that the 2 Public Service Commission determine whether the proposed plant 3 will provide the most cost-effective source of power. It is 4 incumbent on the Commissioners to first determine the 5 undeniable economic issues connected with the expansion of a 6 nuclear power plant before finding FPL's application as a more 7 cost, cost-effective option than renewable and DSM 8 alternatives. 9 Clean Water Action will ask on behalf of all of its 10 members and Florida ratepayers that the Public Service 11 Commission deny Florida Power's petition on the grounds that 12 insufficient information has been furnished to demonstrate that 13 the proposed plant is the most cost-effective alternative 14 available, and that this application fails to demonstrate that 15 renewable energy resources and technologies have been utilized 16 to the extent reasonably available as required by the Florida 17 Statutes. Thank you for your leadership and your time. 18 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Would you 19 remain there for a moment? Commissioners, any questions? 20 Mr. Krasowski. 21 CROSS EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 23 Q Good afternoon. Are you being compensated or paid by 24 anyone to be here today? 25 A Yes. I'm a paid employee with Clean Water Action. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 76 1 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: What is the group? 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Say again. We didn't hear the -- 3 MS. SHIRREFFS: Yes. I'm a paid employee with Clean 4 Water Action. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: With Clean Water Action, did I get 6 -- 7 MS. SHIRREFFS: Uh-huh. 8 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 9 Q And if I may state for the record, it's not like I 10 think there's anything wrong with being paid for what you do. 11 It's just -- 12 A Well, it's a non-profit. It has mostly warm fuzzy 13 feelings. 14 Q There's a lot of volunteers involved. Okay. 15 And then also, and I was interested in knowing if you 16 have any expectation of benefiting through your organization 17 through grants or funding that would result from your fight 18 against -- well, not fight against -- your effort? 19 A I'm not aware of anywhere. We're funded on past 20 performance generally, but not specific to this project. 21 Q Okay. And one other question. You mentioned the 22 water issue in terms of this plant. There were a number of 23 options for water but there's only one left. Is that -- the 24 only one that's allowed to be used is the, is the reused water; 25 is that correct? FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 77 1 A Based on the application that went through the county 2 commission here in Miami-Dade, reuse is supposed to be the 3 first priority if it's found to be viable. The Floridan 4 Aquifer is still an option. 5 Q Okay. 6 A And so there's some discussion about whether or not 7 that's even viable if they're pulling from the Floridan Aquifer 8 and how that would -- the energy costs and well field damage 9 and different types of options. Because they haven't said, we 10 haven't been able to fully assess the ramifications of where 11 the water source will be. 12 Q Okay. The ramifications of the economics of the 13 whole water -- 14 A Uh-huh. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Sorry. The court reporter is 16 really having trouble. 17 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 18 Q Oh, okay. By her comment on ramifications, assessing 19 the ramifications of the water choice, I'm asking you that 20 you're meaning also the economics of the cost of water to be 21 brought into the facility? 22 A Yes. Since we do not know whether this water is 23 going to come from a reuse plant that may need to be erected or 24 if it's going to be drawn from the Floridan Aquifer and treated 25 we are unable to assess the cost of water supply of 70 to FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 78 1 90 million gallons a day. 2 MR. KRASOWSKI: Thank you. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Mr. Chair. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: One moment, please. 6 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Just a question now to that 7 response. The water would be, would need to be treated to go 8 through to cool? What kind of treatment would you need at 9 the -- and I'm just asking because she may know more than I do. 10 What kind of treatment would need to take place? 11 MS. SHIRREFFS: It depends on where in the Floridan 12 Aquifer the water is pulled. It's not clean water like the 13 Biscayne Aquifer is. So I don't have the technological 14 information to answer that, but it's not -- it would need some 15 sort of processing just as reuse needs processing because it's 16 not -- 17 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Right. And my reason for 18 that is, one is for potable use, and the other is I didn't 19 know. I wasn't sure. I think what you're saying is there's a 20 possibility that some treatment, not for potable purposes or 21 drinking purposes but for mechanical or whatever. 22 MS. SHIRREFFS: Right. The lower Floridan or the 23 Floridan isn't considered, you know, readily available to be 24 potable. 25 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Oh, I know about it. I FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 79 1 know about it. I just didn't -- what I'm trying to 2 differentiate is treatment for drinking purposes and treatment 3 for plant purposes. I didn't even know that they had to treat 4 water for, for a nuclear power plant. So that's what you're 5 getting at. 6 MS. SHIRREFFS: Well, my -- yeah. What the County 7 documents sort of suggested was that they were going to perform 8 a feasibility study on whether reuse could be used in the 9 operation of this plant, but that information is not yet known. 10 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Okay. Mr. Chair, if we can 11 find out, I'd love at some point to know if water needs to be 12 treated. Because if that has an economic basis to it, then we 13 have something to say or have to, definitely have to look into 14 that. If it's purely an environmental issue, which I'm not 15 disregarding, but that's not our jurisdiction. But if it has 16 an economic issue, then I would like to know. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Commissioner Skop. 18 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I 19 would also ask, and I think Ms. Shirreffs, and hopefully I'm 20 pronouncing that correctly but it was very hard to hear, thank 21 you for your comments. 22 And with respect to the water supply issue, I just 23 kind of -- for my own information I think some of that has to 24 do with historically reactor plants have been able to use 25 direct pass-through cooling, like if they're proximate to a FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 80 1 water source. Like, for instance, I believe St. Lucie 1 and 2 2 uses it directly through the ocean pass-through and then back 3 out. I think Crystal River 3 also does that also. But if FPL 4 could briefly perhaps clarify some of this for us, I think it 5 might be helpful to my colleagues. And also with respect to 6 the treatment of water, because it's my understanding it's a 7 closed-loop system, so you're just using water as a heat 8 exchanger to your closed loop that is the reactor plant water. 9 So I think some clarification might be in order. Thank you. 10 And, Dawn, if you could probably stay there. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Before FPL, do you have any more 12 questions for this witness? 13 COMMISSIONER SKOP: No. 14 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Thank you so kindly. 15 MR. KRASOWSKI: Excuse me, Commissioner. FP&L didn't 16 stand to be sworn in. So if we could do that before they 17 provide any testimony, I'd appreciate it. 18 CHAIRMAN CARTER: This is their attorney. Their 19 attorney does not have to be sworn in. He's -- 20 MR. KRASOWSKI: Sorry. I didn't realize they didn't 21 have -- 22 CHAIRMAN CARTER: We never swore you in, 23 Mr. Krasowski. Okay? 24 MR. KRASOWSKI: I did -- but okay. Okay. Thank you. 25 MR. BRYAN: Excuse me. I would just like a FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 81 1 clarification. Commissioner Skop, were you asking for somebody 2 today to -- 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: If you don't have the person here 4 today, certainly we'd like to have that sent to us and for the 5 record in terms of the economic aspects of the water use 6 pertaining to this project here. 7 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Treatment, I think. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Treatment of the water for this 9 process. I think it would probably be better to submit that so 10 we can have that for the evaluation and we can review that just 11 in case any other Commissioners have any questions. Once we 12 see that, there may be some other questions. Again, as I said 13 at the opening, this is the first stop. Our formal final 14 hearing on this will be on the 30th and we can go from there. 15 But I think it would be more inclusive if we could get that in 16 writing. 17 Commissioner Skop. 18 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you. And just as a quick 19 follow-up, Mr. Bryan. I guess what I was looking for was 20 perhaps the change in regulation that spurs the need to bring 21 in water because pass-through cooling is no longer allowed. I 22 think that's accurate. I'm not 100 percent sure. But I think 23 that that would alleviate or inform both myself and my 24 colleagues with respect to the cooling issue. Thank you. 25 MR. BRYAN: Very good. Certainly we will comply with FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 82 1 that request. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. And again to the public 3 that's here, as I said, some of you that were not here when we 4 started a couple of hours ago is that this is our public 5 testimony where we're taking information from the public to put 6 as part of our record. This will be the first one. We 7 normally have this in Tallahassee, but because of the nature of 8 this we thought it important enough for us to come down from 9 Tallahassee to be with you here today and hear from you 10 directly. We'll have a subsequent hearing in Tallahassee, and 11 after we have the hearing from the public, then we'll go into a 12 more evidentiary hearing where we have people, 13 cross-examination, information, witnesses, experts and things 14 like that. But we did, as a Commission we thought it important 15 enough to us to come and hear from the people that are directly 16 impacted by this. So we thank you and we appreciate your 17 comments for now. 18 Ms. Brubaker. 19 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Agustin Rodriguez. 20 And the next three after will be Mark Oncavage, Tim Weller and 21 Pedro Capo. 22 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And just for the record, if you 23 have not been sworn in, please state so. As I said, there's 24 some people that came in after I had sworn in the first group 25 of people. And if you have not been sworn in, please let me FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 83 1 know and we can take care of that and we'll go from there. 2 Whereupon, 3 AGUSTIN RODRIGUEZ 4 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 5 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 6 DIRECT STATEMENT 7 MR. RODRIGUEZ: Good afternoon, Commissioners, and 8 good afternoon, Chair. My name is Agustin Rodriguez and I'm 9 here representing the Alliance for Aging. Primarily I'm here 10 to support FP&L in their efforts that they have had in regard 11 to assisting primarily our elders and their caregivers. 12 Basically FP&L has been a partner with the Alliance 13 for Aging in providing assistance to our elders who at times 14 have issues of not being able to pay for their electricity 15 primarily through different programs that we have with them. 16 And also their meter readers are people who are aware of elders 17 and frail people who do not have people out there in the 18 community that assist them. 19 We do support FP&L in their ventures. But primarily 20 I do not have anything to really say in regard to the nuclear 21 plant because primarily our whole issue with FP&L has to do 22 with services that we do provide, and they assist us with those 23 services to our elders and their caregivers. And pretty much 24 that's all I have to say. Thank you very much. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Thank you. One moment, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 84 1 please. Commissioners? Thank you so kindly. Thank you. 2 Ms. Brubaker. 3 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Mark Oncavage. 4 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Say again, please. 5 MS. BRUBAKER: Mark -- and, again, just for the 6 record let me apologize for any mispronunciations. Mark 7 Oncavage. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And if you could please help us 9 with the pronunciation of your last name, sir. 10 Whereupon, 11 MARK ONCAVAGE 12 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 13 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 14 DIRECT STATEMENT 15 MR. ONCAVAGE: Ms. Brubaker was absolutely correct. 16 I am Mark Oncavage, O-N-C-A-V-A-G-E. I live at 12200 Southwest 17 110th Avenue in Miami. I am the Conservation Chair of Sierra 18 Club, Miami group, and I am speaking on behalf of the Miami 19 group. I have requested that handouts be passed out. I do not 20 wish to read all ten pages of the handout, so I hope you'll 21 work with me a little bit on this. 22 I have authored four documents and these are the four 23 documents that are before you. We have been on a trail trying 24 to find where the cooling water is going to come from for the 25 nuclear power plants. If you look at the second page of FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 85 1 Document Number 1, this is pretty much boilerplate kind of 2 questions as to what sort of processes are involved, what sort 3 of sources for the, for the cooling water and processed water 4 and blowdown and fire protection that are going to be there. 5 We had a meeting, two environmental groups and two 6 county agencies, about the water, about the water supply. And 7 of all these questions that were offered to these agencies only 8 parts of two answers came. One was that we know that the 9 processed water is going to come from the Newton Water 10 Treatment Plant and it's going to be 100,000 gallons a day. We 11 also found out that there was going to be a requirement for 12 70 million gallons a day of cooling water. And the question 13 went to the agencies, Miami-Dade Water and Sewer and the 14 Department of Environmental, Department of Environmental 15 Resource Management, where the water is going to come from and 16 they had no idea. They were absolutely buffaloed with this. 17 So please turn to Document Number 2. The 18 environmental groups had a meeting with Florida Power & Light 19 and the questions that I gave to them in writing were not 20 answered. We don't know where this water is going to come 21 from. These questions have been around for a number of months 22 and Florida Power & Light has just never bothered to come up 23 with answers for us. So we are again stymied as to trying to 24 find out what sort of economic costs, what sort of 25 environmental costs are going to be involved with trying to FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 86 1 cool these two nuclear reactors. 2 If you look at Document Number 3, this was a 3 recommendation from the Miami-Dade County Development Impact 4 Committee. We have a set of laws called the Jennings Law that 5 says we are not allowed to speak to county commissioners about 6 a quasi-judicial zoning variance hearing. So all of this was 7 handled by the county agencies beforehand, keeping our 8 commissioners totally in the dark on this. 9 Again, where is the water going to come from? It's, 10 it's 60 to 90 million gallons a day. One idea that came 11 through was that we're going to have reused water from a sewage 12 treatment plant. Now Turkey Point is located right next to a 13 sewage treatment plant, and this plant is slated to go into 14 water reuse to cleanse the water, but it's part of a 15 comprehensive Everglades restoration project and all of the 16 reused water from this plant is slated to go elsewhere. There 17 is a discrepancy as to whether the water should go for wetlands 18 rehydration or whether it should go for aquifer recharge, and 19 finally the South Florida Water Management District decided it 20 was going to go for wetlands rehydration. 21 So the story that comes out piece by piece is that 22 the next location for where this amount of water can be had is 23 the sewage plant on Virginia Key, 22 miles away. And the 24 suggestion was offered that they should drill a tunnel under 25 Biscayne Bay, which is now standing Florida water, underneath FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 87 1 Biscayne National Park to bring sewage in so that it can be 2 cleaned up and that it can be offered to Florida Power & Light 3 as cooling water. This -- we don't know so many things. We 4 don't know if it's feasible to do this. We don't know what the 5 costs are going to be. We don't know whether it's going to be 6 one or two pumping stations that are going to provide this. We 7 don't know who is going to own this pipeline. And we don't 8 know who's going to be responsible for accidents and mistakes 9 and sabotage and cleanup. So we have some real problems trying 10 to figure out where the cooling water is going to come from. 11 If it comes from Virginia Key, it is going to be horrendously 12 expensive. 13 Just cleaning up the water from the plant that's 14 going to be built in the South Dade area is going to cost 15 $1.6 billion, but that water cannot go to Florida Power & 16 Light. So the question is is there going to be another 17 $1.6 billion plant that Florida Power & Light has to build to 18 get cooling water? 19 If you go to the fourth document, this was -- we had 20 a commission meeting with the Miami-Dade County Commission, and 21 they were very proud that they had just concluded negotiations 22 for a 20-year consumptive use permit with the South Florida 23 Water Management District. We also found out that Florida 24 Power & Light and their request for 60 to 90 million gallons a 25 day of water is not included in this 20-year consumptive use FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 88 1 permit. It's mentioned. It's mentioned that people have to 2 start getting together and talking and looking, but there is no 3 dedication anywhere of this water being available to Florida 4 Power & Light. 5 The County staff is struggling to meet the 6 requirements of this 20-year consumptive use permit from the 7 South Florida Water Management District. I've been a member of 8 a panel that was helping the development community find ways of 9 saving water. This was through Miami-Dade County. We're 10 finding out now that starting this coming Tuesday, 11 January 15th, we are moving from Phase 2 water restrictions to 12 Phase 3 water restrictions. We are very short of water. We 13 are very concerned for the health of Lake Okeechobee. It is 14 dropping and it is not being replenished. Lake Okeechobee is 15 the county's backup water supply from the Biscayne Aquifer. 16 One of the rulings, one of the restrictions is that 17 Dade County has to reduce over the next 20 years, the 18 consumptive use permit, its actual use of water by 20 million 19 gallons a day. This is in spite of increases in population. 20 They have to go through alternate water supplies, they have to 21 go through conservation programs, they have to do all kinds of 22 different things. They have to start using sewage water over 23 and over again just to, just to get to this point where any 24 withdrawals from the Biscayne Aquifer in addition to what is 25 happening right now have to be replaced. They have to be FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 89 1 recharged. 2 What we would like to see is the Public Service 3 Commission adopt the same philosophy that in the next 20 years 4 we have to reduce electrical consumption. I think that would 5 be the most beneficial thing that we could do, not only for 6 water, but for electricity, for fossil fuels, for gasoline, for 7 all these things. 8 So, please, if you go to the very last page of the 9 handout, there are three questions that I had for the 10 Miami-Dade County Commission: What is the source of the 11 90 million gallons of cooling water, how much will it cost, and 12 who pays the cost? The Public Service Commissioners might want 13 to ask these same questions for Florida Power & Light. Thank 14 you very much. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: One moment before you go. 16 Commissioners -- and for the public, let me just kind of -- our 17 court reporter has been going for well over, in excess of two 18 hours, so she's going to need to take a break, and we've got a 19 lot of people signed up and we want to hear from everyone. So 20 we're looking forward to the opportunity to hearing from 21 everyone. That's our purpose for being here, to hear from the 22 public. And so we -- those of you that have already said the 23 same thing that your neighbors have said, if you could say, you 24 know, I agree or disagree or whatever the case may be. But we 25 want to hear from everyone, but we've only got the room for FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 90 1 just, just over another hour or so. But we do have to give the 2 court reporter a break. So after this witness we're going to 3 take a ten-minute break, then we'll kind of get ourselves 4 together for that. We appreciate everyone's enthusiasm and 5 information and all like that, but we did come to hear from the 6 public. And a lot of the organizations, we appreciate the 7 information that we're getting from you, but we do want to hear 8 from the public at large. 9 So, Commissioners, any questions for this witness? 10 Commissioner Skop. 11 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank 12 you, Mr. Oncavage, for -- hopefully I pronounced that 13 properly -- for submitting the three final questions at the 14 end. And hopefully, on behalf of myself and my colleagues, 15 those questions that you presented will be adequately addressed 16 and discussed and we'll have answers during the course of our 17 proceedings. Thank you. 18 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you very kindly. 19 Commissioners -- oh, Mr. Krasowski, oh, I'm so sorry. You're 20 recognized. 21 MR. KRASOWSKI: Thank you, sir. 22 CROSS EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. KRASOWSKI: 24 Q Mr. Oncavage, are you being paid or compensated by 25 anyone to be here today? FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 91 1 A I am very much unpaid. 2 Q And do you have any expectation of being funded 3 throughout the course by, throughout the course of this event 4 or hearing? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. Thank you very much. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Brubaker, I think we'll have 8 this marked for identification purposes only as Exhibit 9 Number 4. 10 MS. BRUBAKER: Number 4. Correct. 11 (Exhibit 4 marked for identification.) 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And I think what we'll do is in 13 fairness of time, I will ask the Public Counsel what time do 14 you have so we can take ten minutes from your time, sir? 15 MR. KELLY: I'll tell you if I can see. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Put on your glasses. Put your 17 glasses on. (Laughter.) 18 MR. KELLY: I have 5:59. 19 CHAIRMAN CARTER: 5:59. We'll take a ten-minute 20 break, give the court reporter a chance to do that. And those 21 of you that are part of organizations, if you're pretty much 22 the same, please allow the public an opportunity to be heard. 23 Thank you, sir. We shall return at 6:59. 24 MR. BECK: Whoa. Whoa. 25 MR. KELLY: No. Whoa. That's an hour. 6:10. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 92 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Oh, 6:10. Well, you see, that's 2 why I asked somebody else for the time. (Laughter.) 3 (Recess taken.) 4 We are back on the record. As we get our seats here, 5 I made some comments initially and I want to kind of let you 6 know where we are is that, first of all, as I said, is that 7 because we wanted to hear from the public -- we normally just 8 have the hearing in Tallahassee, but we came down here because 9 we wanted to hear from the public directly, those that are most 10 affected by this. We've got about 28 more people signed up to 11 speak. We've got the building only until about 8:00. What 12 that's going to do is -- I've been kind of -- we really need 13 you to stick to within two minutes. And those of you, please 14 consider the time that you've taken over that two minutes as 15 you're keeping your neighbor from having his or her say. And, 16 again, if you have more than that to say, just use the green 17 sheets here that I mentioned three times before. Please make 18 your statements here and send them up to us. Those of you that 19 feel that you, two minutes is not appropriate, we have another 20 hearing in Tallahassee. We'd be more than happy to have you 21 there. But, again, because we really wanted to hear from the 22 public we came. 23 So, please, ma'am, please, sir, as you come up, 24 please be advised that we want to hear from your neighbors, we 25 want to hear from everyone. That's why we're here. This is an FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 93 1 extraordinary event for us to do that. But we wanted to hear. 2 So as you get up, please -- my grandmama taught me not to be 3 rude, so I really don't want to gavel anybody down, out. 4 Please use your two minutes so your neighbors can be heard. We 5 sincerely, sincerely from the depths of our heart appreciate 6 Miami-Dade allowing us to use their facility here, but we only 7 have it for, until 8:00, and I really want to hear from as many 8 people as possible. So I don't want to be rude. That's why I 9 want to let you know up-front we did have this extraordinary 10 hearing because of what was happening here, we wanted to come 11 down, but you do have another opportunity in Tallahassee to be 12 heard. And if your two minutes doesn't allow you to say 13 everything that's on your heart, please use the sheets. We'll 14 put that as part of the record. With that, Ms. Brubaker. 15 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Pedro Capo. And 16 if I could call the next three after will be Rhonda Roff, Deb 17 Arnason and Renny Ramai. 18 Whereupon, 19 PEDRO CAPO 20 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 21 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 22 DIRECT STATEMENT 23 MR. CAPO: Good afternoon. My name is Pedro Capo. 24 I'm at 4200 Northwest 167th Street, Miami, Florida. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Could you please spell your last FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 94 1 name for us? 2 MR. CAPO: Capo, C-A-P-O. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. 4 MR. CAPO: Yes. I've been living here in Miami for 5 the last 41, almost 41 years. I came when I was a little boy 6 from Cuba. There was hardly anything here. And I've seen the 7 growth that especially South Florida has had. And FP&L has 8 been around for much longer than that. Since the very 9 beginning in the business world FP&L approached us to help us 10 in our business to be able to save, energy consumption, better 11 roofs, recycling, the whole gamut. I've heard some of the 12 negative comments about FP&L not actually having an interest in 13 the savings part of it, and I'm a testament to that in our 14 buildings. We have more than a million square feet in South 15 Florida of buildings that need to be cooled and lit. We've got 16 about close to 1,000 employees that live off of those buildings 17 in the retail community. And FP&L has actually been a very 18 instrumental entity in recommending reflective roofs, high 19 energy units, either being new construction or replacements, 20 the lighting issue throughout the entire facilities, either it 21 being the showrooms or the warehouse, low dimmers, all kinds of 22 things that are profitable to our company as a, as a business. 23 So in the sense of being part of the community and trying to 24 help the community and save the environment, I would say that I 25 would give 100 points to FP&L on that end. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 95 1 We definitely need to have better power. We need to 2 have better reaction when we have hurricanes. I know Florida 3 is a very specific kind of state, much different than most of 4 the states that have been mentioned here in this meeting. We 5 had a number of hurricanes a few years ago. I lost two of my 6 stores because of hurricanes. I know what FPL was able to do. 7 I know about the damage to sunroof and all that kind of stuff 8 that is not necessarily appropriate for Florida. I'm not an 9 engineer. I don't know if the, if the best solution at this 10 time is a nuclear plant or not. But I do, I can say that if I 11 was to give the authority to, for any company or any entity or 12 any kind of government agency to install a nuclear plant, I 13 would give it to somebody that would be experienced, that has 14 the knowledge and the track record that FP&L has had for the 15 last 30 some years in the Turkey Point plant. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Capo. 17 We appreciate that. 18 MR. CAPO: Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN CARTER: The -- I'm sure Mr. Krasowski would 20 ask you whether or not you've been paid. 21 MR. CAPO: No, I have not been paid. And I will not 22 benefit, only to get a better rate hopefully. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 24 Commissioners? 25 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: No. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 96 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 2 Ms. Brubaker. 3 MS. BRUBAKER: Rhonda Roff, please. 4 Whereupon, 5 RHONDA ROFF 6 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 7 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 8 DIRECT STATEMENT 9 MS. ROFF: My name is Rhonda Roff, R-H-O-N-D-A, last 10 name is R-O-F like in Frank, F like in Frank. My address is 11 Post Office Box 1953, Clewiston, Florida. Do you need the zip, 12 phone number? 13 I wrote my talking points out to spare you my 14 rambling, so I hope you don't mind if I read. I really want to 15 thank you all for coming down to Miami. It's a big state. 16 It's really hard to get up to Tallahassee, especially when you 17 have young children that you have to leave with somebody else. 18 So this is really wonderful that you're all here. And I 19 really, really appreciate you changing the date of this hearing 20 to tonight rather than tomorrow. As you know, many of us will 21 be over at Sanibel/Captiva tomorrow for the Everglades 22 Coalition meeting, and I wish that you could all join us 23 because we're going to have some fairly lively discussion about 24 Everglades restoration. 25 Now to the point, we thought we had shown nuclear FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 97 1 power to be unsafe almost 30 years ago after the Chernobyl and 2 Three Mile Island accidents. In the years since the accidents, 3 a new generation of decision-makers has grown up, excuse me, 4 and in the absence of institutional memory lacks the component 5 of caution that we have earned by frightful experience. I was 6 going to Rutgers, I was a chemistry student at Rutgers at the 7 time when Three Mile Island had its accident. And I was 8 directly downwind of it and it was very frightening. I 9 remember having to take potassium iodine tablets and I remember 10 all the milk from the dairy farms in Pennsylvania and the 11 Harrisburg area needed to be disposed of because of the 12 radionuclides that were taken up by the milk cows. It's 13 possible. I think it's possible that we have accidents and we 14 need to be mindful of that. 15 In 2005, the Florida Legislature approved cost 16 recovery for nuclear during a time that it was not on the 17 public's mind. No doubt there's a need as long as we continue 18 growing and consuming the way we do now. I don't really know 19 why the rest rooms need to be equipped with electrically 20 managed hand towels, but we consume, we consume far more than 21 we absolutely need to. 22 Meeting that need, to flood the grid with nuclear 23 generated capacity will likely remove incentive to grow truly 24 clean renewable capacities such as solar and implement 25 conservation measures and practices. These components were FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 98 1 mandated by Governor Crist by Executive Order at the Climate 2 Summit held this past summer right here in Miami. 3 My husband and I are doing our part to build a zero 4 energy home. While we're allowed to add 10 kilowatts of 5 photovoltaic capacity to our home and interconnect that to the 6 grid, the engineering calculations say that we're going to need 7 less than five and maintain all of our power use that we 8 currently do, that's air conditioning. And that's south of 9 Clewiston. It's very hot in the summer there. And although I 10 would dry my clothes out on the line and not use the clothes 11 dryer, sometimes it rains and that becomes inconvenient. So we 12 expect to use our full load and do it entirely on solar PV 13 building-integrated laminates on the roof. 14 Now regarding the cost for this nuclear expansion, 15 there are some knowns clearly: The construction, operation, 16 protection from terrorist attacks, certain components of the 17 waste storage and evacuation plans. But there are also 18 unknowns: Long-term waste storage, water availability. I live 19 in an agricultural area that is currently just shuddering from 20 the drought. We're having to feed -- we run cattle and we're 21 having to feed our cattle hay because we just don't have enough 22 water in the pastures right now to grow the grass for them. 23 The radionuclide contamination to the -- 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Roff, could you summarize, 25 please? Remember, I wanted to hear from all of your neighbors. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 99 1 And I'm really trying to keep this -- we've got -- I want to 2 hear from everybody, so I'm not, as I said earlier, I'm not 3 being rude. I'm just trying to keep us within that time frame 4 so everyone can be heard. 5 MS. ROFF: Okay. I'll speak, I'll speak quickly. 6 I'll speak quickly. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: So you've got like 30 seconds. 8 MS. ROFF: Well, we spent 20 minutes listening to an 9 FP&L advertisement, with all due respect, and I wasn't pleased 10 with it. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Yes, ma'am. Part of your 30 12 seconds you're using now. So we want to hear from everybody. 13 MS. ROFF: They aren't required to have an MPDS 14 permit because it's a closed-loop system, so we can't estimate 15 the radionuclide contamination to the water. Sea level rise is 16 almost certain. Sea level is -- sea water is very corrosive 17 through its salinity to concrete and steel from which most of 18 the buildings are built. It is also well-known that regulated 19 utilities do not profit from selling kilowatts. They profit 20 from capital investments. They need to do this, and you're 21 required to approve or not approve it. But that is the cost of 22 reality involved here. And it will only be a reasonable cost 23 to the ratepayer if the operations run smoothly. We -- 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. And as I said 25 to the members earlier, is that -- wait for one moment, please. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 100 1 As I made my opening statements, I really did not want to be 2 rude. I wanted to make sure we heard from everyone. Let me 3 just ask you those questions so you don't have to listen to 4 Mr. Krasowski. Are you being paid by anyone else to be here? 5 MS. ROFF: I have invested a tremendous amount of my 6 own personal savings into this. No, I am not paid, and I will 7 not profit from this. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Thank you so kindly. 9 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Mr. Chair, may we just ask 10 if she would like to submit her additional writings so that we 11 can read that? 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Could you do that, please, just 13 submit that to us in writing? And as I said earlier, we have 14 these forms here. Just if you -- I know two minutes is not a 15 lot of time, but we want to hear from everyone. We only have 16 the room for a little bit amount of time. We've got 28 people. 17 As fair, as much as possible to hear from everyone that took 18 the time out from their day to be here. So, please, ma'am, 19 make your comments here and we'll have staff to pick it up. 20 And as I said, I apologize, but I'm trying to make sure that we 21 get a chance for everyone to be heard. 22 Ms. Brubaker. 23 MS. BRUBAKER: Deb Arnason. Thank you. 24 Whereupon, 25 DEBBIE ARNASON FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 101 1 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 2 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 3 DIRECT STATEMENT 4 MS. ARNASON: Arnason, Debbie Arnason, A-R-N-A-S-O-N. 5 Okay. I live at 12 Dill Street, Alva, Florida. I am an FPL 6 ratepayer. I was part of the -- actually I attended the Public 7 Service Commission April 16th, 2006 -- 2007, this past year. 8 I'm sorry. And, and we were very fortunate that the PSC did 9 refuse the coal plant that they were planning for the heart of 10 our endangered Everglades. Now at that time they said they 11 couldn't do anything but coal until they were denied, and then 12 they found they could partner with OSRA (phonetic) and they 13 could do 1,000 megawatts of coal. But they still needed this 14 extra nuclear. Now I don't believe that and I don't believe 15 what FPL has been telling me all along. I know they provide 16 good energy and we have reliable energy and that's great and 17 their prices are reasonable, but the truth is that I was paying 18 for that, the Green Energy Program and getting, getting conned. 19 They were using my money to buy $100,000 fire trucks for Glades 20 County and other counties surrounding where they were going to 21 put in the coal plant. They were not doing anything seriously 22 about solar, and that's why I'm here. 23 Solar is the alternative. I heard things today, I 24 heard about -- I have 360 signatures of people who say no coal, 25 no nuclear, go solar, especially if we as the ratepayers are FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 102 1 going to be asked to subsidize. I call it subsidizing our own 2 demise. 3 I do not want to pay for nuclear waste, and that 4 brings me to the next topic. When Mr. Silagy said we are, 5 something about the best defended targets, and that's exactly 6 what I think of as a nuclear plant is a target. Solar panels 7 are not a target, you know, and they can be integrated into the 8 existing grid in local communities. So if the whole grid goes 9 down, we've still got some solar generation there. There's 10 many things that can be done. 11 I have worked for my brother's aerospace metals 12 business, and not only do I have Time Global Warming, which 13 recommends solar, I have Mother Earth, I have Renewable Energy 14 World, I've got solar, solar, solar and wind, of course, and 15 algae, and there's a lot of other doables and they're being 16 done. I want this in the record for FPL, and I hope they write 17 this down. I would really appreciate it. The Renewable Energy 18 World Trade Magazine is available to anyone, anyone on the 19 panel up here for free at WWW.REW-subscribe.com to receive a 20 free copy. There are incredible solar solutions. 21 And I would like to say, I know that time is very, 22 very short now, because this is in a conference, it's called 23 the Concentrated Solar Power Summit and it's in San Francisco 24 and it's January 28th and 29th. But I think FPL has enough 25 money to make a last-minute arrangement for one of their FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 103 1 representatives to attend this conference. And here's what it 2 says: "How to build and run a profitable concentrated solar 3 power plant. Everything you need to know to get a CSP plant up 4 and running fast." And it's got everything. It's got the cost 5 reduction and the technology updates and so on and so forth in 6 construction. So I see no excuse whatsoever except for the 7 money. This is going to be charged to ratepayers. I'm losing 8 some of my papers here. But I will tell you that I wasn't 9 planning to talk on this. I was going to talk on the fossil 10 fuel addiction because this is just another form of actual 11 fossil fuel addiction. 12 And I do, if I can find it, want to hold up my 13 picture which I'll include with my paperwork, which is Uncle 14 Sam and he's drunk on his butt over here and he's surrounded by 15 empty oil cans. And I put a lump of coal in there. I don't 16 know if that's, if I shouldn't have done that. But anyway it's 17 from USA Today August the 13th. And he's reaching for a 18 nuclear canister. "Just what I need, a little eye opener." 19 It's a fossil fuel addiction, and we need to get off the fossil 20 fuels and into the sunlight of the spirit and into the solution 21 and not waste our money on it. 22 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Now do you have those 23 that you would like to have submitted to the record? 24 MS. ARNASON: I sure do. I sure do. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And while we're getting ready for FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 104 1 Mr. Ballinger to get those from you, let me just ask you those 2 questions so you don't have to. 3 MS. ARNASON: Oh, sure. Sure. 4 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Do you remember Mr. Krasowski's 5 questions? 6 MS. ARNASON: Yes, I am totally -- yes, I was 7 thinking about giving you the response when I first got up 8 here. I am totally unpaid. I am just a very caring, concerned 9 citizen, and at a great expense to get here, and I may even 10 come up to Tallahassee to give you the rest of my comments. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: We look forward to seeing you. 12 MS. ARNASON: Thank you, thank you so much for 13 coming. I appreciate it. 14 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so much. We really are 17 sincerely trying to get everyone here. We came this far to 18 hear from everybody. 19 Ms. Brubaker. 20 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Renny Ramai. And 21 the next three after will be Don Ehat, Eileen Smith and George 22 Cavros. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: The name, the first name you said? 24 MS. BRUBAKER: Renny. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Renny? FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 105 1 MS. BRUBAKER: Ramos. Ramai. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: If Mr. Ramos is not here, we'll 3 move to the next person on the list. 4 MS. BRUBAKER: Okay. And that will be Don Ehat. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Say the name again. 6 MS. BRUBAKER: Last name is E-H-A-T. Eileen Smith. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Smith? Thank you so kindly. 8 Whereupon, 9 EILEEN SMITH 10 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 11 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 12 DIRECT STATEMENT 13 MS. SMITH: Thank you for making the trip. Eileen 14 Smith, and my address is 3940 North 56th Avenue, Hollywood. 15 Efficiency and cost-effectiveness, these new reactors 16 are neither. Their great cost to residents of this state are 17 just simply unacceptable, especially since we haven't taken the 18 many steps that are available to us through energy efficiency, 19 which is a virtual cost-free alternative that's also risk free, 20 and I think that's very important. Because this is really the 21 very definition of efficiency that I think your Commission is 22 looking for. 23 The risks that I mentioned are important and they're 24 diverse. I am really not convinced by drills and by 25 reassurances. More reactors close to Miami's major airport in FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 106 1 an age of security concerns doesn't make us secure. I've heard 2 the study with the jumbo jet flying into nuclear reactors, and 3 I don't want to belittle it, but I just want to say we once 4 thought that the World Trade Center was secure and we thought 5 the same thing about the Titanic and the Hindenburg and a lot 6 of other examples throughout history. My point is really that 7 we are not infallible. We are very fallible and so are our 8 creations, and it's really important to factor that into the 9 cost of this. 10 Of course, other people have mentioned unresolved 11 transportation of waste and the major storage issues for 12 nuclear waste, and these are items we can't ignore because 13 their cost is inevitable sooner or later. It's not, as FPL 14 says, cleaner, greener and smarter to make a mess when we don't 15 know how to clean it up. It's irresponsible and it will be 16 expensive to our generation but also to future generations. I 17 hope you'll factor in those externalities. These reactors will 18 be water hogs, as other people have said, and we need our water 19 for people, for agriculture, not for parched reactors. 20 Finally, an issue that hasn't been mentioned so much 21 and it's health. I really urge the Commission, because I can't 22 do it in two minutes, to do their own research and to examine 23 very carefully rates of thyroid cancer, leukemia and breast 24 cancer, as well as cancer mortality in cities likes 25 Philadelphia, which happens to have 13 reactors within 90 miles FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 107 1 of it. The rates are very high. I can't show cause and effect 2 today; I sure can't do it in the time limit. I can only say 3 that it's definitely not worth the potential increased risk in 4 Florida to our state, the costs to our healthcare system and 5 the unaccountable, the costs we really can't measure to our 6 children. 7 In closing, in my opinion first we need more 8 efficiency, then we need more solar for which the technology 9 improves each and every day. Then maybe we'll need natural gas 10 at Turkey Point, but we don't need more nuclear because the 11 price is way too high in too many ways for way too many people. 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so very, very kindly. 13 And before you go, you know, I'm going to ask you the questions 14 so we don't have to do that. 15 Are you being paid for, to be here? 16 MS. SMITH: I am not being paid, but I do perceive a 17 benefit for this plant as a private citizen, and it is that we 18 will have that cleaner, greener and smarter future that FPL 19 mentioned, but we'll have it without nuclear. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. And, again, just before 21 our next speaker comes up, again, those of you -- we obviously 22 want to hear from everyone possible. But, please, ma'am, 23 please, sir, if you have additional comments, please use these 24 sheets and we will take them up to Tallahassee, make them part 25 of the record so that when we complete our public hearing, it FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 108 1 will be on the 30th, we'll have all of the information. 2 Ms. Brubaker. 3 MS. BRUBAKER: Before the next name I just would note 4 for the record, I received Ms. Arnason's comments. I would ask 5 that those comments be identified as Exhibit Number 5. 6 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Exhibit Number 5. Show them marked 7 for identification purposes. 8 (Exhibit 5 marked for identification.) 9 MS. BRUBAKER: Thank you. The next speaker is George 10 Cavros. The next three after will be Jen Rock, Steve 11 McGonigle, Eric Knowles. 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Mr. Cavros, you're recognized. 13 Whereupon, 14 GEORGE CAVROS 15 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 16 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 17 DIRECT STATEMENT 18 MR. CAVROS: Thank you, Chairman. This is going to 19 be an abbreviated presentation. My name is George Cavros. I'm 20 here on behalf of the Natural Resources Defense Council and the 21 Southern Alliance for Clean Energy, both non-profits that 22 support clean energy solutions. 23 My first point is that I don't want the Governor, 24 Governor's initiatives of trying to place us in a leadership 25 role and a clean energy future to be viewed as a green light FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 109 1 for nuclear power plant construction. There are -- clean 2 energy future depends on investment, aggressive investment in 3 energy efficiency implementation and also renewable technology 4 development, and large baseload generation plants draw 5 investment away from those areas. It's a, by all accounts it's 6 a disincentive to a clean energy future. 7 But you have a really focused view here, so let's go 8 straight to the plant. First consider the cost of new 9 nuclear construction. Estimating costs has been really hard to 10 gauge. There hasn't been a nuclear reactor built in this 11 country in 30 years. Cost in 2000 from vendors and the 12 government for nuclear construction was about 1,500 to 2,000 a 13 kilowatt of capacity. And then in, in that -- some utilities 14 were actually quoting that figure as early as 2007, early 2007. 15 In mid-2007, the Keystone Center, a non-profit 16 research organization with financial support from companies 17 like Duke Energy, Southern Company and FP&L, in a June report 18 concluded that the cost of new nuclear construction is about 19 4,000 a kilowatt of capacity. And most recently Moody's 20 Investor Services estimated the cost at 6,000 kilowatt of 21 capacity just several months ago. So while estimates vary 22 somewhat, two things are very clear: Number one, the 23 construction costs for nuclear are astronomical. And let me 24 tell you exactly what I mean by that. Each ratepayer will be 25 hit with a de facto surcharge of $4,000, and that's each FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 110 1 ratepayer's share that -- in a likely scenario with an 2 $18 billion construction cost, over 4.5 million ratepayers for 3 early cost recovery. And I encourage you to do the math 4 yourself. Also, costs are rising rapidly. They've doubled and 5 tripled just in the last year. They've gone from $2,500 to 6 $4,000 to $6,000 just in one year. Typically, FP&L has been 7 candid about the cost of the two units. In the press which I 8 gave you as Exhibit 1, FP&L admits that the units will cost 9 from $12 billion to $18 billion. And the FPL quote in the 10 press equates to about an $18 billion or, rather, about a 6,000 11 kilowatt per capacity construction cost. 12 Additionally, supply options, supply options can't be 13 considered in a vacuum. Before you is a question of what has 14 the applicant done to mitigate supply-side costs to consumers 15 through energy efficiency measures? Now back in 1994, pursuant 16 to your legislative mandate, under state and federal law you 17 adopted the rate impact measure. Today, Florida -- as a 18 cost-effective test for screening energy efficiency. Today, 19 Florida is the only major state in the nation that still uses 20 the rate impact measure test as the ultimate screen for judging 21 the cost and effectiveness of energy efficiency measures, and 22 that's represented in Exhibit 2, which is from the United 23 States Environmental Protection Agency. You know, and that 24 should raise a red flag for this Commission. Why don't other 25 states use it as an exclusive screen? Other states have moved FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 111 1 away from this screen because it doesn't capture all 2 cost-effective energy efficiency. In fact, your own staff has 3 reported to you that the rate impact measure screens out 4 aggressive energy efficiency, and that's found in Exhibit 3. 5 If you turn to Page 2 and Page 3, there's a bullet down there 6 that says, "Programs with relatively high kilowatt reductions 7 will result in higher revenue losses and reduce the potential 8 to be cost-effective under RIM." And if you look at, turn the 9 page to Page 3, bottom bullet, that bullet says, "Because 10 revenues losses are not included, programs with relatively 11 higher kilowatt reductions are more likely to be 12 cost-effective." And that's what we're looking for is kilowatt 13 reductions, and we're not getting it under the present screen 14 that this Commission and Florida utilities are using. The RIM 15 test is often referred to as the no losers test because it 16 doesn't put upward pressure on rates. But what it should be 17 referred to as is the no winners test since it precludes 18 aggressive cost-effective energy efficiency. It's important to 19 note that people pay bills, they don't pay rates. Other states 20 have found there's a net benefit to increasing rates for 21 aggressive energy efficiency because it mitigates and 22 eliminates the need for new and more expensive supply-side 23 construction. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Cavros. Thank you 25 very much. I did give you additional time, and I'm sure we'll FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 112 1 see you again in Tallahassee. Let's mark this Exhibit Number 2 6 for identification. 3 (Exhibit 6 marked for identification.) 4 You know the questions that Mr. Krasowski is asking. 5 You've been paid to be here and -- 6 MR. CAVROS: And, Chairman, if I might just add -- 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I really want to make sure that we 8 hear from the public. 9 MR. CAVROS: Absolutely. Because I'm not -- 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I'm doing the best I can. I want 11 to be as fair as I can. The more time we use for one person, 12 the less time other citizens get an opportunity to be heard. 13 MR. CAVROS: Sure. I just wanted to, you know, to 14 impress upon that energy efficiency is central to your 15 questions by statute in 403.5194. Has the applicant performed 16 adequate? Have they, have they attained reasonable, attainable 17 energy efficiency, have they captured that? And I think you 18 have -- 19 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Let me do this. Let me 20 impress upon you and everyone here, if this were not important 21 to us as a Commission, we wouldn't have scheduled an extra 22 meeting that's not required for us to be here. It's extremely 23 important to us and we appreciate that. That's why we want to 24 hear from as many people as possible. So Ms. Brubaker. 25 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Jen Rock. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 113 1 MR. KRASOWSKI: Excuse me. Could we please have the 2 courtesy of an answer to our question that was posed to 3 everyone? 4 MR. CAVROS: I apologize. Yes. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: He said that he's been paid to be 6 here. 7 MR. CAVROS: The answer would be no, and -- 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You didn't say that? 9 MR. CAVROS: I'm sorry. Yes and no. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. I guess we'll take a yes and 11 a no then. 12 Next we have -- Ms. Brubaker? Your name again, 13 please. 14 Whereupon, 15 JENNIFER ROCK 16 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 17 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 18 DIRECT STATEMENT 19 MS. ROCK: Hi. My name is Jennifer Rock. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Jennifer? 21 MS. ROCK: Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And your last name? 23 MS. ROCK: Rock, R-O-C-K. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. 25 MS. ROCK: I have not been paid or compensated to be FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 114 1 here, and I don't have anything to profit from the construction 2 of this reactor. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Excellent. Thank you. Thank you 4 so kindly. Good to see young people here with us. 5 MS. ROCK: I live at 3201 183rd Street in Aventura. 6 That's 33132. Nuclear power is not the answer to the electric 7 needs of Florida in terms of adequate reliable power. If there 8 is an emergency at the reactor and it needs to reduce or pause 9 power reduction, the electric grid goes into crisis and often 10 the only backup is generators. This actually happened at the 11 Vermont Yankee reactor in Vernon, Vermont, when I was a 12 resident in Vermont. 13 Nuclear power, although it does not rely on fossil 14 fuel or natural gas specifically at the reactor, the mining and 15 processing of uranium as well as the transportation of the 16 uranium and depleted fuel rods, spent fuel rods is extremely 17 energy intensive. Overall greenhouse gas emissions becomes 18 equivalent to coal power. 19 When air pollution was first recognized as a problem, 20 the response was to build taller smoke stacks. Now that we are 21 concerned with climate change and dependence on fossil fuel 22 we've become shortsighted enough to think that nuclear power is 23 a clean alternative. 24 As FPL aims for the long-term stability, I ask them 25 how to address the issue of nuclear waste and claim, and how FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 115 1 they can claim there's any stability in a waste product that 2 outdates any foreseeable future when a depleted uranium -- when 3 depleted uranium reprocessing is also closely tied to nuclear 4 weapons production. Who pays for the waste management? It is 5 not the responsibility of FPL. It belongs to the federal 6 government, and they are not holding up their commitments to 7 waste management. 10,000 years is a very, very long time. 8 Constructing a nuclear reactor is a huge commitment. And when 9 we all realize it's not clean, safe or affordable, it will be 10 too late. Nuclear power is dangerous, it is dirty, it is not 11 sustainable and we do not want it. 12 Finally, I have one question for Mr. Nathan Skop. 13 I'm not sure it's appropriate for me to ask questions, but I'd 14 like to get it on the record either way. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You can put your question on the 16 record. 17 MS. ROCK: I read that you worked as a business 18 manager for FPL Energy. And I'm wondering if you experience a 19 conflict in interest as you try to decide what is best for the 20 residents of Florida and have such a close relationship with 21 FPL. 22 Thank you all so much for your time. Oh -- okay. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Before you go, do you 24 remember the questions? Have you been sworn? 25 MR. KRASOWSKI: She did. She answered it. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 116 1 MS. ROCK: I said it when I started. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Good. 3 MS. ROCK: Oh, and I have one exhibit. This is a 4 sign made by concerned citizens of the city. There are lots of 5 people standing outside on the corner trying to spread 6 information to folks who aren't inside. And I would like to 7 enter it as an exhibit. Is that what it is? 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: It's a bit unorthodox, but we'll 9 take it. 10 MS. ROCK: Thank you so much. 11 MS. BRUBAKER: Demonstrative. 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Yeah. We'll just put that under 13 demonstrative evidence. 14 MS. BRUBAKER: I believe that would be Number 7. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: This will be marked as Exhibit -- 16 what's that number? 17 MS. BRUBAKER: Exhibit Number 7. 18 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Exhibit Number 7. 19 (Exhibit 7 marked for identification.) 20 MS. BRUBAKER: Next speaker is Steve McGonigle. 21 Mr. McGonigle. Sorry. Thank you. 22 MR. McGONIGLE: I have a handout. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And before he starts, this will be 24 marked as Exhibit -- 25 MS. BRUBAKER: Number 8. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 117 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Exhibit 8. Exhibit 8. 2 (Exhibit 8 marked for identification.) 3 Whereupon, 4 STEVE McGONIGLE 5 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 6 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 7 DIRECT STATEMENT 8 MR. McGONIGLE: My name is Steve McGonigle, 9 M-C-G-O-N-I-G-L-E. I reside at 2304 Northwest 54th Street in 10 Tamarac. Good afternoon. My name is Steve McGonigle. I am an 11 organizer and do political outreach with the Service Employees 12 International Union, which is the largest security officer 13 union in the United States representing approximately 50,000 14 private security officers and public safety personnel. 15 The SEIU would like to share with you its concerns 16 regarding public safety and security at Turkey Point nuclear 17 plant. Wackenhut Nuclear Services, part of Wackenhut 18 Corporation, provides contract security at the Turkey Point 19 nuclear plant. This is the same Wackenhut that was recently 20 fired from guarding ten nuclear power plants operated by the 21 country's largest provider of nuclear power, Exelon. 22 Exelon terminated its relationship with Wackenhut 23 last fall at its Peach Bottom plant in Pennsylvania after the 24 U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission confirmed that Wackenhut 25 guards were inattentive to their duties on multiple occasions FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 118 1 in the plant's ready room. This means they were asleep on the 2 job. Videotape of sleeping guards confirmed the reports and 3 was broadcast on CBS television in New York City. 4 The chief executive of Exelon told the Washington 5 Post that they felt the incident with the sleeping guards was 6 the last straw. But the same kind of incidents involving the 7 same company have been found to have been going on right here 8 at Turkey Point Nuclear Power Plant, and Wackenhut remains on 9 the job there to this day. 10 As reported by the Miami Herald on October 30th, 11 2007, the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission sent a factual 12 summary of an investigation that had been initiated in 2006 13 regarding inattentive security officers at the Turkey Point 14 Power Plant. The NRC found that between 2004 and 2006 15 Wackenhut security officers were found inattentive on several 16 occasions. Five security officers admitted to being 17 inattentive on separate occasions. One Wackenhut guard 18 admitted to standing as a lookout for two other officers so 19 they could be inattentive to duties without risk of getting 20 caught. There is a disturbing multiyear repeat record of 21 Wackenhut nuclear security officers being found inattentive, 22 meaning asleep on the job at commercial nuclear sites. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Mr. McGonigle, we're going to mark 24 your Exhibit 8 for identification to enter into the record. We 25 appreciate that. The questions would be, from Mr. Krasowski FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 119 1 would be, one, are you being paid to be here? 2 MR. McGONIGLE: Yes, I'm on the clock. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And, two, would you benefit either, 4 whether the plant is built or not, your organization 5 financially? 6 MR. McGONIGLE: No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Ms. Brubaker. 8 MS. BRUBAKER: Eric Knowles. And the next three 9 speakers are Julie Hill, Jaap Donath and Sharon Griemsman. 10 Whereupon, 11 ERIC KNOWLES 12 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 13 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 14 DIRECT STATEMENT 15 MR. KNOWLES: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, my name is 16 Eric Knowles. I reside at 4800 Garfield Street, Hollywood, 17 Florida. I am the Chairman of the Miami-Dade Chamber of 18 Commerce, and I am here speaking on behalf of the board that we 19 are in favor of FP&L building a nuclear site. We are in 20 support of their efforts that they do in the community, and we 21 look forward to the jobs and the business opportunities that 22 will be developed through this development. Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you very kindly. Thank you 24 very kindly. Thank you so kindly. I sincerely appreciate your 25 courtesy. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 120 1 Ms. Brubaker. 2 MS. BRUBAKER: Julie Hill, please. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Welcome, Ms. Hill. It is Hill, 4 right, H-I-L-L? 5 Whereupon, 6 JULIE HILL 7 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 8 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 9 DIRECT STATEMENT 10 MS. HILL: Yeah. J-U-L-I-E H-I-L-L. Nice and 11 boring. (Laughter.) 12 Thank you so much for coming down here. I'm here on 13 behalf of Audubon of Florida. I am a paid employee as the 14 Everglades Policy Associate. And I'm going to keep my comments 15 very short and we will submit written comments for the record 16 with more detail. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 18 MS. HILL: So, first of all, of course, we want to 19 thank you for coming down here and giving us the opportunity to 20 comment. Audubon of Florida feels that any determination of 21 need for new energy generation using sources such as nuclear 22 power should only occur once all of the possible methods for 23 reducing demand, conserving energy and developing clean energy 24 sources have been implemented. A full investment in energy 25 efficiency, conservation and renewable energy should be the FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 121 1 first priority to achieve fuel diversity in the State of 2 Florida, rather than falling back on nuclear. 3 Nuclear power should not be considered until we have 4 invested in all of these other options. And Audubon of Florida 5 urges the Commission to adopt a strategy to provide for all 6 options to reduce demand and conserve energy, including 7 incentives for demand-side management, before determining the 8 need for Turkey Point Units 6 and 7. Thank you. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you, Ms. Hill. And you've 10 heard the questions that have been proposed to all the 11 witnesses by Mr. Krasowski? Would you just respond for the 12 record, please? 13 MS. HILL: Yeah. I am a paid employee of Audubon of 14 Florida. I have no personal outcome in this economically and I 15 have no knowledge of any economic benefit my organization would 16 be getting from this project. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Ms. Brubaker, 18 what I'd like to do now is Mr. Ehat stepped out when we called 19 his name. E-H-A-T, I think. Is that the correct spelling? 20 Come on, sir, and give us your two minutes. We're going to try 21 to get everybody in. And thank you for being -- members, I 22 apologize to you, but I really want to make sure that we hear 23 from everybody. 24 Whereupon, 25 DON EHAT FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 122 1 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 2 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 3 DIRECT STATEMENT 4 MR. EHAT: I don't think I need two minutes. And I'm 5 putting you in for sainthood for the way you have handled this 6 event. 7 I was a management consultant and spent a lot of time 8 in nuclear power plants, so I'm, I'm familiar with how, how 9 professional and careful management, the management of nuclear 10 power is exercised. However, it's important to realize that, 11 that the waste is going to be a gift to our grandchildren and 12 their grandchildren and their grandchildren forever. And I 13 have not heard anyone give a good cost figure for what it's 14 going to take to keep that waste safe, and I'm interested in 15 hearing that. Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. And as I 17 said, is that we're having -- please don't leave yet. As I 18 said earlier several times, that we have another hearing in 19 Tallahassee which will also be a public hearing. Following 20 from that we'll have a technical hearing, an evidentiary, and 21 we ask that you please follow those proceedings. Those of you 22 that can't be in Tallahassee, please watch us on the Internet 23 or check with us or either the Office of Public Counsel. But 24 we wanted to make sure that everyone is fully involved and 25 fully informed. I've not been asking the questions. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 123 1 Mr. Krasowski -- excuse me for messing up the name -- has been 2 asking questions. So for the sake of time, could you just -- 3 he was asking -- 4 MR. EHAT: I've been available but nobody offered. 5 (Laughter.) 6 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 7 Ms. Brubaker. 8 MS. BRUBAKER: Dr. Donath, please. 9 Whereupon, 10 JAAP DONATH, Ph.D. 11 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 12 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 DIRECT STATEMENT 14 DR. DONATH: Good evening. My name is Jaap Donath. 15 I'm with the Beacon Council here in Miami-Dade County. I'm 16 located at 80 Southwest 8th Street, Miami 33130. My name is 17 spelled J-A-A-P, last name, D-O-N-A-T-H. 18 The Beacon Council is the economic development 19 organization for Miami-Dade County and we promote Miami as a 20 place to do business. And as part of it we work with companies 21 and try to bring them to Miami-Dade County either as expansion 22 or a relocation into our community. And one of the issues that 23 we face on a regular basis is the energy question. Especially 24 the larger projects, they want to hear is there enough energy 25 available for the things we want to do in Miami-Dade County? FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 124 1 And so for us as an organization and the growth we see in 2 Miami-Dade County from the population and business side, it's 3 important to have a reliable source of energy so that we can 4 bring those companies in and grow our economy and create jobs 5 for all the people in Miami-Dade County. So we support the 6 efforts by FPL, and I'm open for any questions. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Thank you so kindly, 8 Mr. Donath. And -- 9 DR. DONATH: Yes and yes. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Thank you very much. 11 He said a yes and a yes to Mr. Krasowski's questions. 12 DR. DONATH: No and no. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: No and no? Was that no and no, 14 Mr. Donath? 15 DR. DONATH: I don't get paid and I don't get a 16 benefit out of -- 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I'm sorry. Could you -- we're 18 recording this for the court reporter. 19 DR. DONATH: I'm sorry. The answer is no and no. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: No and no to Mr. Krasowski's 21 questions. Thank you so kindly. 22 Ms. Brubaker. 23 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Sharon Griemsman, 24 and then the three after that will be Laura Sue Wilansky, Barry 25 Johnson and Jeanne Jacobs. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 125 1 Whereupon, 2 SHARON GRIEMSMAN 3 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 4 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 5 DIRECT STATEMENT 6 MS. GRIEMSMAN: Good evening. I'm Sharon Griemsman 7 and I'm with -- that's G-R-I-E-M-S-M-A-N, and I'm a paid 8 employee of United Way of Miami-Dade. I am here this evening 9 and I wish to just say that I'm speaking on behalf of our CEO, 10 Harve Mogul, who asked me to share our organization's statement 11 regarding FP&L as a responsible community steward. 12 United Way shares a long-standing relationship of 13 almost half a century with FP&L. FP&L's corporate commitment, 14 leadership and compassion to help others is demonstrated 15 through their partnership with United Way. FPL's 16 community-centered mission lives within the organization, and 17 that is shared and acted upon by its leaders, management and 18 labor, its employees, contractors and vendors. Through the 19 years FP&L has fostered an impressive track record that reads 20 as a top-rated report card for the most philanthropic-minded 21 entities in the country. 22 FP&L provides its annual United Way investments to 23 our local communities through its volunteer service on our 24 board committee -- our board and committees. Excuse me. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Excuse me, Ms. Griemsman. Could FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 126 1 you -- the court reporter is having trouble. Could I ask one 2 of the gentlemen in the audience, would you be so courteous to 3 step up and adjust the microphone? 4 MS. GRIEMSMAN: Is that better? 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Can you hear her now? 6 Ms. GRIEMSMAN: Yeah. That's better. I'm so sorry, 7 dear. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And also, Ms. Griemsman, your 9 written comments, will you submit those to us as well? 10 MS. GRIEMSMAN: I certainly will. I'd be glad to. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Continue, please. 12 MS. GRIEMSMAN: I'll just finish up because I know 13 our time is short. But FP&L provides an annual commitment to 14 our community through its investments through volunteer service 15 advocacy by sharing information and supporting our ability to 16 provide citizens with opportunities for human service benefits 17 and community planning and development as it serves as a 18 information resource for providing professional -- by providing 19 their professional time and expertise for the development of 20 solutions to meet our community's most urgent needs. 21 They also provide us with resources. They annually 22 direct in excess of $2 million to our local community here in 23 South Florida, and since 2000 have topped well over $10 million 24 in community service investments here in South Florida. We are 25 proud and honored to be here today to say that FP&L has proven FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 127 1 that it is a responsible community-conscious partner. And 2 thank you very much. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. And do you 4 remember the questions that Mr. Krasowski was asking? 5 MS. GRIEMSMAN: Yes. I am a paid employee, but we 6 will not benefit either for -- from or from not. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Thank you. And do you have 8 written comments? 9 MS. GRIEMSMAN: Yes, I do. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. 11 MS. BRUBAKER: And, Chairman, by my count that would 12 be identified as Exhibit Number 9. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Exhibit Number 9. 14 (Exhibit 9 marked for identification.) 15 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Laura Sue 16 Wilansky, please. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I'm having trouble hearing you. 18 MS. BRUBAKER: I'm sorry. Laura Sue Wilansky. 19 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Laura Sue, you've got to help me 20 with the spelling. 21 MS. WILANSKY: Absolutely. Thanks. 22 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you for being here. 23 Whereupon, 24 LAURA SUE WILANSKY 25 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 128 1 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 2 DIRECT STATEMENT 3 MS. WILANSKY: Thank you very much. Thank you to all 4 of you for being here. My name is Laura Sue, it's 5 W-I-L-A-N-S-K-Y. I'm also widely known as the Silver 6 Nightingale. I'm a musician. A lot of people know me by that 7 name, not the other name. This is my first opportunity to 8 attend a Public Service Commission hearing or to speak. And I 9 wanted to let you know that today is my birthday, and this was 10 the best thing that I felt that I could do on my birthday was 11 to come here today. So you know this is very important to me. 12 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Happy birthday. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Happy birthday. 14 MS. WILANSKY: Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm 15 also an FP&L customer, and I've been an environmental activist 16 for about 40 years. My academic training and professional 17 background include extensive work with computers. And it has 18 become clear to me through this work that neither computers, 19 people or physical materials are or can be made 100 percent 20 infallible, and these are the elements of which nuclear plants 21 are composed. So there is no way to guarantee at any nuclear 22 plant that there will never be some kind of accident. And 23 nuclear power is the only form of energy generation in which 24 even a small accident could literally mean the end of life on 25 earth. That's my main point. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 129 1 FP&L and other utilities are now trying to sell 2 nuclear energy as clean, green energy as other people have 3 discussed, but there is no such thing as clean, safe, 4 affordable nuclear power. If the true costs of nuclear waste 5 disposal are factored into the equation, it's clear that 6 nuclear power is not cheap. The costs of an accident are 7 impossible to calculate and too high for us to bear. One 8 example is the countless children who are growing up or not 9 growing up with severe heart defects, a condition that has come 10 to be known as Chernobyl heart. If nuclear power was truly 11 affordable and viable, utility companies would not find it 12 impossible to insure their plants through normal commercial 13 channels and would not have recently gone to Congress to obtain 14 billions of dollars of loan guarantees at taxpayer expense. 15 The purpose of this hearing is to examine whether 16 there is a need for this expansion. If we in Florida take full 17 advantage of the abundant solar resource that we have available 18 here and maximize our conservation, there will be no need for 19 this expansion. It's time for a Manhattan project for 20 renewable energy, not for further huge investments in this 21 failed and extremely dangerous energy technology. And I'd like 22 to enter or give you materials. This is a song I wrote about 23 30 years again called the No Nukes Swing, which discusses my -- 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: The title of it again. 25 MS. WILANSKY: The No Nukes Swing. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 130 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: The No Nukes Swing. 2 MS. WILANSKY: It discusses my feeling about nuclear 3 plants and nuclear weapons. And I'm also going to give you a 4 card with a link to my personal nuclear free zone, which has 5 links to many wonderful organizations, some of which are 6 represented here. It's a great place to do your own research. 7 I think everyone should educate themselves. Thank you so much 8 for the opportunity to speak. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you from the Silver 10 Nightingale. This will be Exhibit Number 10. 11 MS. BRUBAKER: That's correct. 12 (Exhibit 10 marked for identification.) 13 MS. WILANSKY: And your questions: I'm not being 14 paid to be here. In fact, I took a day off work to be here. I 15 have no financial stake unless this song becomes famous and 16 sells lots of copies, in which case I'll probably donate the 17 profits to one of these great organizations. (Laughter.) 18 CHAIRMAN CARTER: If you become famous, just 19 remember, you know, you heard it here first. 20 MS. WILANSKY: Yeah. That would be great. 21 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I am also a lawyer. No. 22 Let me just say as Mr. Ballinger collects that and 23 brings it forward -- and, Mr. Ballinger, I need to see you. 24 Let me just say to my fellow Commissioners how much I 25 appreciate you yielding your time for questions so that we can FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 131 1 hear from all of the public, and I sincerely appreciate that 2 from the depths of my heart. It is our goal to hear from 3 everyone that came today, so we're trying to do that, and thank 4 you so kindly. 5 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Brubaker. 7 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Barry Johnson. 8 Whereupon, 9 BARRY JOHNSON 10 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 11 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 12 DIRECT STATEMENT 13 MR. JOHNSON: Good evening. Mr. Chairman, members of 14 the Commission and staff, welcome to Miami. It's great to have 15 you here. My name is Barry Johnson. I'm the President and 16 Chief Executive Officer of the Greater Miami Chamber of 17 Commerce, 1601 Biscayne Boulevard. And I will be brief, 18 hopefully as brief as Eric Knowles. 19 I'm here basically to support FP&L because of three 20 reasons, one of which is energy, and we're running out of 21 energy in Miami. If you've come here from up north, you 22 probably found a different Miami when you landed than you have 23 seen in, in years prior because we're growing very, very 24 quickly here. We need energy and we need a lot of energy. 25 As a matter of fact, right now Florida Power & Light FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 132 1 is exporting or, excuse me, importing into South Florida 2 40 percent of all the energy because it cannot meet the needs 3 of Miami today. So we have an energy crisis on our hands that 4 we have to solve. We also have a very safe nuclear power plant 5 in south Dade County that's been very efficient, operating for 6 35 years and with a very experienced company at the helm, 7 withstanding Hurricane Andrew, as we heard earlier. We've 8 already built that, the ratepayers have already built that. It 9 just makes sense to expand on that because it is probably the 10 most logical and cost-effective way to meet the energy needs of 11 our community. 12 Second is jobs. We are -- we do not have big 13 corporations based in South Florida. We are a small business 14 town. Jobs are very important to us and the growth of jobs. 15 Building in addition to the power plant here will bring good 16 quality construction jobs and, following that, supervisory jobs 17 from FP&L to sustain the job growth that we need in this 18 community. 19 Finally is trust. We have a company that we trust. 20 It's been a solid citizen of our community. It's been a member 21 of our chamber for more than 60 years. They're very active in 22 support of what's good about South Florida and trying to make 23 it a better place to live, work and play. And as you probably 24 know, when the Governor had his Going Green Symposium, FP&L was 25 right there. They're recognized nationally as one of the best FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 133 1 power companies in America and they're a company with a track 2 record to be trusted. So the chamber supports this. I'm 3 pleased to support it. 4 I'm not being paid to be here. I am a paid advocate. 5 And will I, will I benefit from this? Frankly, every resident 6 of Miami-Dade County will benefit with this power plant because 7 we need the energy here. Thank you very much. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly for being here. 9 Ms. Brubaker. 10 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Jeanne Jacobs, to 11 be followed by Joe Chi, Ana Rodriguez and Ed Redlich. 12 Whereupon, 13 JEANNE JACOBS 14 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 15 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 16 DIRECT STATEMENT 17 MS. JACOBS: Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, 18 welcome to Miami-Dade College again, and we're certainly glad 19 to have you here. I am Jeanne Jacobs, the Campus President of 20 Miami-Dade College, Homestead Campus. And I'm pleased to speak 21 in support of FP&L and our ongoing partnership specifically 22 with Turkey Point as we have been able to establish a 23 professional training pipeline. And that pipeline supports the 24 economic growth in our local community and it also helps 25 develop and retain local talent in Miami-Dade County. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 134 1 We've had a successful, long history with FP&L and 2 we've recognized that this industry has a growing demand for 3 highly skilled workers and that it is facing work force 4 shortages. So together we've been able to collaborate and 5 develop an associate's degree in electrical power technology. 6 And I would say to you that we have in that program a very 7 diverse group of incumbent workers and students. It's been 8 very successful. And when these students leave this program, 9 they're qualified for positions in nuclear and other power 10 facilities. 11 Finally I'd say to you that FP&L has been in the 12 Homestead community for over 30 years. For 17 of those 30 13 years FP&L and Miami-Dade College, Homestead Campus, have been 14 very good neighbors. We certainly will continue our 15 collaboration. We believe we enrich or communities and we 16 support this effort. Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Excuse me, Madam President. Thank 18 you so kindly for your hospitality, by the way, with your 19 colleague here at this wonderful and beautiful facility. The 20 questions that have been asked today were were you being paid 21 to be here and would you benefit from the plant being here? 22 That was from one of the parties. 23 MS. JACOBS: And my answer would be no and no. 24 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so very kindly. 25 Ms. Brubaker. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 135 1 MS. BRUBAKER: Joe Chi, please. 2 Whereupon, 3 JOE CHI 4 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 5 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 6 DIRECT STATEMENT 7 MR. CHI: Hello there, Commission members. It's been 8 exhausting, to say the least. You must be really feeling it. 9 I'm here representing -- I'm a private businessman, Maxim's 10 Import Corporation. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Please tell us your name. 12 MR. CHI: And my name is Joe Chi. I reside at 8545 13 -- 14 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Could you spell your last name, 15 sir? 16 MR. CHI: C-H-I. Yeah. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: C-H-I. Thank you. Okay. 18 MR. CHI: 8545 Southwest 120th Street. And I'm also 19 here representing Camacol, the Latin Chamber of Commerce, as 20 the Secretary of the Board. We're in full support of this 21 petition for FP&L to build the nuclear power plant at Turkey 22 Point down in the, in the southern part of Miami. We believe 23 that this will have enormous and repercussive benefits for the 24 whole community, and not only that, but also for the future of 25 our children. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 136 1 Before I leave I would like to say a few personal 2 comments on how I feel about this. My point is that we need to 3 embrace every form of alternative energy as they become 4 feasible, solar, wind, geothermal, ocean current, nuclear, as 5 long as we carefully institute all the necessary precautions. 6 FP&L has an excellent record in this regard. We also need to 7 make sure that the future energy needs of our generations are 8 met. We must be careful not to implement so-called 9 conservation schemes that actually turn out to be 10 counterproductive in the long run. 11 I'll give you an example. California, I admit, has 12 been a pioneer in many of these schemes, some of which have 13 resulted in unintended consequences like massive power outages 14 out west recently. 15 We support the progress of this great nation and 16 responsible companies like FP&L who have provided the means for 17 this progress. We should reasonably incorporate all the 18 options on the table, including the nuclear option. I came 19 here believing that your job, and I'm sure it is, is to protect 20 the interests and to ensure that resources are available for 21 the public for the future. If they are not, we will all be 22 hearing from a much larger base of concerned citizens, the 23 millions of FP&L consumers during possible power outages and 24 failures. 25 To conclude, I would like to thank all of our FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 137 1 concerned citizens and organizations today for coming here 2 today. Sure, there will be technical difficulties, as there 3 always is, but I would like you not to succumb to paralysis of 4 analysis. Work with FP&L to solve these issues. FP&L is a 5 responsible corporate citizen, not a corporate monster plotting 6 our collective demise. Thank you very much. 7 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. And you remember the 8 questions that were asked? 9 MR. CHI: No and no. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And Mr. Krasowski asked the 11 questions of whether or not you've been paid to be here today. 12 Would you please stand before the mike so we can get it on the 13 record? 14 MR. CHI: No, I was not paid to be here. Actually 15 I'm paying to be here -- (Laughter.) 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And I think the other question, and 17 I think the other question he asked was -- 18 MR. CHI -- in more ways than one. 19 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Would you benefit in any way 20 whether or not the plant is built? 21 MR. CHI: Hopefully through lower energy costs for 22 myself and everybody involved. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 24 MR. CHI: Thank you. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Brubaker. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 138 1 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Ana Rodriguez. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You got cold, didn't you? 3 MS. RODRIGUEZ: Hi. Yes, I did. 4 Whereupon, 5 ANA RODRIGUEZ 6 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 7 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 8 DIRECT STATEMENT 9 MS. RODRIGUEZ: My name is Ana Rodriguez. I'm an 10 FP&L customer from West Palm Beach. 11 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Would you mind spelling your last 12 name for us, please?. 13 MS. RODRIGUEZ: Uh-huh. R-O-D-R-I-G-U-E-Z. Do you 14 need my address? It's written on the signup sheet. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Thank you. 16 MS. RODRIGUEZ: Okay. Wonderful. All right. No 17 carbon emissions and greenhouse gases is not equivalent to 18 toxic -- not equivalent to clean energy when it is traded in 19 for toxic emissions and radioactive waste. It is definitely 20 not clean and it is definitely not the cleanest. Sustainable 21 renewable technology is available right now and in use. 22 Florida deserves it as well as its remaining natural areas. 23 One of the Commissioners was asking earlier whether 24 some of the people in the audience had been to gatherings or 25 meetings where people had shown discontent for this project or FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 139 1 disapproval for it. I have been to many, and there is many 2 concerned citizens who definitely disapprove of nuclear power 3 in Florida. The existing and definitely additional degradation 4 to Biscayne National Park and other parks which FPL has permits 5 pending to degrade all over Florida. 6 I do not believe that FPL is a good neighbor. I 7 think that if people test the teeth in their infants and their 8 elderly, they will find that there's some substantial evidence 9 that they're not that good of a neighbor, especially not 10 anywhere near nuclear reactors. There have been many, many 11 scientific studies made to that effect. 12 Which brings me to the question of information, which 13 is related to what I was saying earlier about no negative 14 public comments at meetings, especially business-oriented 15 meetings. As we know, FPL does have -- 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: No -- I didn't hear you. No 17 negative? 18 MS. RODRIGUEZ: No negative comments or comments of 19 disapproval from the public. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Thank you. 21 MS. RODRIGUEZ: I have been to a lot of FPL meetings 22 and I find that the information is coming mostly from FPL, not 23 very, not very many scientists are represented in these 24 meetings and other studies which are very, from credible 25 sources, from scientists and from environmentalists. And I FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 140 1 believe that, you know, FPL tells its partners that they have 2 the cleanest, the safest and the most affordable energy, and 3 they have them completely star struck with these ideas of how 4 they're going to be the cleanest in the future. And they speak 5 of the future and they speak of renewable energy and 6 sustainable energy and how they're moving that direction in the 7 future. Meanwhile, they have permits all over Florida, and 8 especially extremely close to national -- to natural wildlife 9 refuges and national parks, which I'm actually wondering if 10 they have, like, something against endangered species and 11 threatened species. Are they just trying to put them out of 12 their misery or something? Apparently so because all their 13 plants are really, really close mostly to natural areas, the 14 very few remaining ones. 15 I don't know exactly where the business community is 16 getting their information, but I have suspicion that they're 17 getting most of their information from FPL representatives and 18 their positive PR lectures. I also know that a lot of these 19 people have partnerships with FPL. Unfortunately, a lot of 20 even the environmentalist community has been given -- I don't 21 know a really polite way of saying it -- for lack of a better 22 word, I'm a little bit nervous, I'm going to say that, you 23 know, FPL buys off a lot of people. They have given even the 24 Arthur R. Marshall Wildlife Foundation money. And then 25 coincidentally a few days later the Arthur R. Marshall FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 141 1 Foundation sends their representatives to hearings where we're 2 supposed to be discussing permits for FPL, and they say, "I 3 have nothing to profit from this power plant, I have nothing to 4 profit from this, but FPL is a wonderful partner to us and has 5 done a lot for us." I have nothing personally against that. I 6 understand the business world and I know that it's necessary. 7 I just feel that it's a little bit unjust the way that things 8 are working. And especially I would be very wary in regards to 9 where people are getting their information. 10 I have actually been told by Commissioner Santamaria 11 up in Palm Beach County whenever discussing a FPL permit that 12 he was disappointed that the public did not bring enough 13 scientific information to back up their disapproval of the 14 power plant. I don't think that the public needs to take time 15 off of work and to come and inform commissioners on why not to 16 give permits to FPL. These people are getting paid to be here 17 to further profit from their permits. We're taking time off 18 work. We're not professionals, we're not scientists, we're not 19 nuclear physicists, and we have to come over here and 20 supposedly make this whole argument on what there is already 21 books and major scientific and environmentalist studies to 22 defend, which is that nuclear power is not good. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. And I think 24 by your statement the answer to Mr. Krasowski's questions would 25 be -- FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 142 1 MS. RODRIGUEZ: I do not get paid for anything, and I 2 have much heartache coming from the struggles against FPL's 3 projects and permits all around my very treasured wildlife 4 refuges. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you for coming. And let me 6 just say this on behalf of the Commission is what we're doing 7 now. This is a public -- all of our decisions allow us to hear 8 from the public. We'll be in an evidentiary perspective with 9 adversaries, with other parties and all like that, but prior to 10 making a decision as a Commission we go out and get information 11 from the public. It is important to us. This is the people's 12 government. I'm sure you heard the Governor said that, you 13 know, it's the people's government. That's not just a slogan, 14 that's the way it is. And that's why it was important to us to 15 come down. I mean, we're required to do one hearing in 16 Tallahassee, but we thought enough about the people here -- I 17 realize it's a hardship to go from your job, so we were able, 18 thanks to Senator Villalobos and the wonderful people here at 19 Miami-Dade, to open the doors to us and to be able to move the 20 time around to hear from wonderful people like yourself. 21 MS. RODRIGUEZ: I have to praise you guys. This is 22 definitely one of the fairest commissioner hearings I have been 23 to. I will definitely say that. 24 The one thing that I would maybe suggest, and I don't 25 know if this is a good hearing to suggest it, but I have been FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 143 1 to plenty, is that I always hear a lot of information coming 2 from FPL representatives but I don't see another side. Maybe 3 if it could be more inclusive in regards to a scientist also 4 speaking and saying what their side of it is. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Let me answer that for you, is that 6 this is the public hearing -- 7 MS. RODRIGUEZ: Somebody professional other than the 8 public. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: This is the public hearing portion 10 of it. The other phase I mentioned about in Tallahassee will 11 be an evidentiary. They'll have scientists coming in taking 12 oaths and they'll have scientists, engineers and all people 13 like that under oath. The evidentiary hearing is something 14 different. But what we want to make sure we do is hear from 15 the public. We sincerely appreciate you being here. Thank you 16 so kindly. You've already answered Mr. Krasowski's questions? 17 MS. RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. No and no, I will definitely 18 not profit from further -- 19 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Ms. Brubaker. 20 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Ed Redlick or 21 Redlich. The next three will be Richard White, Miguel Fuentes 22 and Cathy Gilbert. 23 Whereupon, 24 ED REDLICH 25 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 144 1 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 2 DIRECT STATEMENT 3 MR. REDLICH: Good evening and happy new year. My 4 name is Edward Redlich, R-E-D-L-I-C-H. My address is 8725 5 Northwest 18 Terrace, and that's in Miami. 6 I am the current Chairman of the Board of Vision 7 Council. It's a non-profit organization. Basically it's made 8 up of members of the South Dade business leaders in the 9 community. Some of our members are the City of Homestead and 10 Chevrolet, for example. If you're familiar with Miami-Dade 11 County's Beacon Council, it's very similar to that, only we're 12 a lot smaller and we just focus on the geographic area of South 13 Dade. 14 Our goal is economic development for our community, 15 and secondly it's job creation. The City of Homestead, 16 according to the U.S. Census Bureau, is the fastest, if not one 17 of the fastest growing cities in the United States of America 18 with a population of 50,000 people or more. We believe at the 19 Vision Council that the commercial development is soon to 20 follow. We are seeing growth in the office, retail and 21 industrial manufacturing businesses right now. So on behalf of 22 Vision Council, our members, the Board of Directors, we are 23 supporting the FPL proposal for clean source energy, reliable 24 and affordable power. And by the way, I'm here of my volition. 25 I don't expect compensation now or in the future. Thank you. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 145 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Ms. Brubaker. 2 MS. BRUBAKER: Richard White. Is Mr. White in 3 attendance? Miguel Fuentes. 4 Whereupon, 5 MIGUEL FUENTES 6 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 7 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 8 DIRECT STATEMENT 9 MR. FUENTES: Good evening. Miguel Fuentes, 295 West 10 79th Place, Hialeah, Florida. I am the Political Director for 11 the Florida Carpenter's Regional Council, a labor organization 12 that is in strong support of the expansion at Turkey Point. We 13 have 4,000 members statewide, 1,200 in the Miami-Dade area, 14 many of which have worked at the Turkey Point plant doing 15 regular maintenance and shutdowns and things like that. Been 16 there 30 years and we haven't had one incident yet where one of 17 our guys hasn't been safe. So I'm pretty confident that it's 18 safe there and they follow all the precautions needed to make 19 sure that not only the folks around the surrounding power plant 20 but even inside are healthy and well. 21 Florida Power & Light has been a great partner and a 22 good corporate citizen. You probably don't expect hearing that 23 from a labor organization. But I tell you what, any time we've 24 had a discussion or a dispute or even any disagreement, we got 25 down on the table, we talked about it, we figured it out and FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 146 1 moved on. During the hurricane seasons when their guys are out 2 restoring power for everybody, leaving their homes unattended, 3 our guys would go out and take care of their homes. So we work 4 together for the community to make sure things are flowing. 5 Nothing is perfect. I understand that. I think the rest of 6 the world knows that. I hear about planes and security guards 7 and all sorts of things that happen. But those are unintended 8 consequences that we won't even know will happen or not happen. 9 So long as from their record, and their history has proven that 10 they are responsible, they're going to make sure that some of 11 the things that they can control are in place so it's safe, I'm 12 confident that they will do that, and their history proves what 13 they will do in the future. I support it, my members support 14 it. And the only ones who are paying me are the members I 15 represent. I don't expect to gain anything personally from it. 16 If they have a better job and the people in the community have 17 a job behind it with benefits, healthcare, things that are very 18 hard to come by, I'm all for the project. Thank you very much. 19 I don't have stock in the company either. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Ms. Brubaker. 21 MS. BRUBAKER: Cathy Gilbert. Following Ms. Gilbert, 22 Rebecca Wood, Eric Pontaleon and Fiz Heintz. 23 Whereupon, 24 CATHY GILBERT 25 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 147 1 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 2 DIRECT STATEMENT 3 MS. GILBERT: Hello. My name is Cathy Gilbert, 4 G-I-L-B-E-R-T. I'm at 2301 Northeast 6th Avenue, Miami. 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Excuse me. Would you mind -- could 6 you put it just a little closer to you there? 7 MS. GILBERT: Is that better? 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Yes, ma'am. I hope you don't mind. 9 I'm going to ask you to start over, please. 10 MS. GILBERT: Yes. My name is Cathy Gilbert, 11 G-I-L-B-E-R-T. I live here in Miami. I'm at 2301 Northeast 12 6th Avenue. I'm also with the Green Party of Florida and will 13 present a statement, a written statement from my, from the 14 Green Party of Florida. 15 I just wanted to also -- I need a double pair here. 16 I just wanted to mention a few other things besides the 17 statement here. The nuclear industry does spend billions 18 promoting itself as a clean and safe and cheap energy source. 19 None of these, I believe, are true. And if we even just look 20 at just the operational phase and not at the toxic phases 21 before or after, the toxic emissions that are released on a 22 daily basis cause all cancers and other disease. 23 There's a study that shows, there's a baby tooth 24 study that somebody, Ana Rodriguez referred to earlier, I 25 think, or alluded to. They collect and test baby teeth to show FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 148 1 the strontium levels, the strontium-90 in baby teeth. And it 2 shows that South Florida, I think, has the highest levels in 3 that study. So we here are definitely contaminated by the 4 radiation emissions. 5 There are, there are also studies showing that the 6 rates of cancer, asthma, baby mortality rates and so forth can 7 echo -- some of these diseases will show up much sooner after 8 emission rates peak or, you know, spike and so forth. But you 9 can see almost like an echo chart. I've seen them especially 10 with asthma where babies -- low weight rates and so forth, 11 you'll show an echo of the emission rates, showing a close 12 correlation there. 13 I'm just going to read briefly the statement that I, 14 the private statement here. The Green Party of Florida and 15 Miami-Dade Green Party strongly oppose the construction of new 16 nuclear power plants in Florida, and we call upon the Public 17 Service Commission in Florida to reject proposals for new 18 reactors at Turkey Point and other Florida sites. 19 There is one more thing I wanted to mention before 20 that. Just the fact that nuclear power, nuclear power plants 21 are dependent on the grid to, to keep the cooling going on. 22 And so here on the coastline they were vulnerable to hurricanes 23 having power outages and so forth. If it's not able -- if 24 it -- if we go as much as 45 minutes without power supported 25 cooling going on we go into meltdown. So, you know, we're FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 149 1 particularly, I think, vulnerable here on the coast of Florida 2 to continue with this. 3 In the context of the, of the escalating global 4 climate crisis it is imperative that all public funds invested 5 in the production of electrical power be focused exclusively on 6 clean, renewable energy production and sustainable solutions. 7 Our commitment to the security and survival of not only our own 8 society but the global human community obligates us to reject 9 false solutions such as the nuclear power option and instead 10 work together to end dependence on the polluting energy 11 industries that endanger the health and well-being of all life 12 on the planet. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Gilbert? 14 MS. GILBERT: Yes. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: You're going to actually give us 16 that? 17 MS. GILBERT: Yes, I'll give that to you. 18 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I would sincerely appreciate that, 19 and we thank you for your participation. Mr. Ballinger will 20 come down and we'll mark that. What's that exhibit number now? 21 MS. BRUBAKER: Exhibit Number 11. 22 MS. GILBERT: Okay. Very good. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Exhibit Number 11. 24 (Exhibit 11 marked for identification.) 25 MS. GILBERT: And I have -- I'm not funded in any way FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 150 1 and I am not going to see any benefit. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so very kindly for 3 participating. 4 Ms. Brubaker. 5 MS. BRUBAKER: Rebecca Wood, please. Is Ms. Wood 6 present? The next speaker would be Eric Pantaleon. 7 Whereupon, 8 ERIC PANTALEON, M.D. 9 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 10 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 11 DIRECT STATEMENT 12 DR. PANTALEON: Good evening to all of you. My name 13 is Eric Pantaleon, P-A-N-T-A-L-E-O-N. I'm a licensed physician 14 with the State of Florida. I live at 4505 Southwest 152nd 15 Avenue in Miramar, 33027. I am the Director of the Florida 16 Urgent Care Centers. We right now have three centers. Florida 17 Power & Light has been instrumental in assisting us being as 18 efficient as possible in the use of energy in all aspects, as 19 well as I've been doing the same thing in my home. I was 20 raised in the Dominican Republic where we paid ten times for 21 the kilowatt that we pay here. We don't have enough energy. 22 We have a lot of power outages. We have to be very efficient. 23 And, as a matter of fact, among my peers and my neighbors I am 24 the one with the lowest bill from FP&L. But there is a limit 25 to how much we can save, there's a limit to how much we can do FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 151 1 nowadays. 2 You know, I used to play with little plastic swords. 3 My kids have computers and we keep using energy no matter what. 4 This is not maybe the best situation, but you know what, we 5 don't have yet all the tools to have all the renewable energy 6 that we wish we had, and probably right now still nuclear is 7 the safe way to go. 8 France uses 70 percent or more of their energy from 9 nuclear plants. I've seen in Holland all the windmills, not 10 the windmills, the wind turbines. They have a lot of energy. 11 But that's not always feasible everywhere. We have to 12 maximize. I understand Florida Power & Light is doing that in 13 terms of getting more wind turbines and trying to get more 14 solar, solar photovoltaic cells. But that's going to take some 15 time and I don't see in the near term how we're going to meet 16 our needs. And we keep growing unfortunately. It may not be 17 the best solution, but like in medicine, the best treatment for 18 a patient sometimes is not feasible. And we've got to really 19 put in a balance and see what is better for ourselves and 20 actually for our future generations, because I have two 21 adolescents. Thank you very much. 22 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 23 DR. PANTALEON: I have not been paid, I have not been 24 coerced, and I won't profit from anything. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so very, very much. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 152 1 DR. PANTALEON: You have a good one. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Ms. Brubaker. 3 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker is Fiz Heintz. Is 4 Mr. Heintz present to speak? Then the next speaker would be 5 Bobbie Messer, to be followed by Suzette Rice and Steve Showen. 6 Whereupon, 7 BOBBIE MESSER 8 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 9 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 10 DIRECT STATEMENT 11 MR. MESSER: Excuse me. I'm diabetic. Bobbie 12 Messer, M-E-S-S-E-R. My address is 1885 Southeast 13th Street 13 in Homestead. In fact, I think I'm the only Homestead resident 14 that spoke or going to speak. 15 I'm retired. 16 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Do you need a minute? Do you need 17 a minute? 18 MR. MESSER: No, sir. I'm going to do it and then 19 I'm going to get out and get something to eat. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: All right. Yes, sir. 21 MR. MESSER: Just a couple of things real fast. I 22 didn't find out about this happening -- I'm sure FPL, you know, 23 published it to the, the governments in the county, but my city 24 didn't notify me, there were no town meetings. I don't know 25 about Florida City or the other municipality, I think it was FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 153 1 South Miami, the government officials were here and said they 2 thrashed it around. But the citizens of those communities I 3 don't think were given the opportunity to voice their opinions. 4 That should be brought to the forefront, I would say. 5 And as much as FPL -- they're doing a good job. In 6 fact, my light bill, believe it or not, is sometimes less than 7 my water bill. So you're doing a good job. And that brings me 8 to the water. I overheard that there's between 70 and 9 90 million gallons required to cool these reactors. Well, you 10 know, I'm six miles, seven miles from it, and FPL is a good 11 neighbor. But I'm concerned about where that 90 million 12 gallons plus or minus is coming from. Will it affect me as a 13 resident of Homestead, South Florida, will it affect the 14 aquifer? I'm not a PETA person, I'm not an environmentalist, 15 so I don't know what the impact, you know, the environmental 16 impact, nor do I understand what the economic impact will be to 17 South Florida, but I'm concerned about those questions and I 18 would hope this Commission would also be concerned for it. But 19 that's my biggest concern. No. No. Have a good evening. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so very kindly. Please 21 get something to eat right away. 22 MS. BRUBAKER: Suzette Rice. 23 Whereupon, 24 SUZETTE RICE 25 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 154 1 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 2 DIRECT STATEMENT 3 MS. RICE: Hi. I think I'm the other one from South 4 Dade. My name is Suzette Rice. I live at 7860 Southwest 181 5 Terrace. I'm really pleased that you all came down for this 6 hearing. I'm sorry you couldn't be outside to enjoy the 7 weather. We had a week of bad weather and now we had a couple 8 of days of great and here we are. 9 I just wanted to point out, and I believe Mr. Messer 10 did, the most important element of this entire element isn't 11 here and that's the people. The real folks aren't here. 12 You're 40, you're about 40 miles from the power plant. The 13 area of our heaviest growth in this county has been directly 14 within the ten-mile circle, radius from the plant -- actually 15 to the west since you've got water on the other side. I'm very 16 concerned about it. I have followed this since 2001 when they 17 had their relicensing hearings. I just -- I'm very 18 disappointed that the education isn't there. 19 And FP&L has been very good to the community. I'm 20 friends with, with Raymond, who is their liaison in South Dade, 21 he's always there and he's always willing, but that's not the 22 problem. The problem is there's been absolutely no public 23 debate, there's been no public education. And I don't 24 necessarily think it's FP&L's responsibility because they are a 25 business, but the community is going to be blindsided because FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 155 1 they don't know, and that was my thing. 2 I don't think we're ready for two more plants. They 3 publish a pamphlet and I'm imagining you guys will see it, if 4 you haven't, of security and how, how to take care of yourself 5 if the plant goes wrong. I will tell you that most people 6 don't read it. They always mail it to us. I have one for 7 every year since I've lived in my house. Most people don't 8 read it. Most people wouldn't know where to find the tablets. 9 If you took this, we have a police station -- actually now we 10 have, I guess, three or four because of the cities. If you 11 took this guide and you asked a street officer where you could 12 do a pickup in case of a nuclear accident, they have no clue. 13 I promise you. My son is a police officer. I know. But he's 14 not, he's not down here, so -- and he's too young. 15 But, anyway, it's a concern because I'm a community 16 person and I have worked in the community for 15 years and it's 17 scary. It's scary. Because I live there -- and I noticed, by 18 the way, as I was looking at the little circles that FP&L has 19 on their map, they've conveniently hopped it over -- 184th used 20 to be the cutoff. They're now including my blocks, which are 21 two over, so I'm now officially in the radius. But the thing 22 is we're not ready. We're not educated. 23 If you listen to the, the monthly testing of their 24 facilities -- I don't know if you've ever heard the testing of 25 the speakers, the warning system. If you've ever gone to FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 156 1 McDonald's on a bad day, that's what those speakers sound like. 2 If you sit in your house, and I have one, I guess, that's about 3 a block and a half from my house, it sounds like somebody has 4 swallowed a microphone. You cannot understand it. You have 5 sirens, you have no idea why. And I know that with the people 6 moving into this community, and, again, that's where our 7 heaviest population growth is, if they haven't read the book, 8 they have no idea. And, you know, my neighborhood after 9 Hurricane Andrew is probably 90 percent, I will guarantee you 10 90 percent new residents, and they've never had a homeowners 11 association meeting discussing the power plant. So that's all 12 I'm going to say. 13 CHAIRMAN CARTER: One second. 14 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: I'm sorry. I don't mean to 15 ask you a question and prolong things but I have to. Because I 16 live near a nuclear power plant also, the Crystal River plant. 17 And I've got to be honest with you, when the company sends me 18 something to read, I read it. So I don't know the point you're 19 trying to make. If the company is sending you something and 20 the people aren't reading it, I don't know what else the 21 company could do. Maybe the homeowners association should make 22 a meeting and say we've got to learn about what the siren 23 means. I know every Friday at 12:00 when I hear that siren, I 24 know it's a test. I know if I hear that siren some other time, 25 I know I've got to take evacuation methods or do something. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 157 1 And I just maybe, maybe -- and I understand. Maybe FP&L could 2 help with the homeowners association, I know they have outreach 3 programs, to maybe get people to understand it is important to 4 read those things. 5 MS. RICE: On a grassroots levels -- and I have just 6 spent nine, nine years working in the political system as a 7 community liaison. These people in our communities don't know. 8 And I say that -- and I will go out, I promise you, from today 9 and I will start asking questions and I will submit them to you 10 in the future. But we just -- I hate to say we're clueless, 11 but I just, I just, I don't have the confidence, okay, that 12 we're, as a community that we would know what to do. We 13 wouldn't. 14 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Okay. Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 16 MS. RICE: And one last thing, and this is just 17 coincidental. When I was reading up, I was surfing the net, I 18 came across a news article from Saturday, January 5th, 2008. 19 It's from the Tehran Times. These people in Iran have got on 20 their front page of their website the story of our Wackenhut 21 guards here in Miami, and personally that doesn't make me feel 22 very secure. Okay. And I'll give you the copies. 23 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Before you go, Ms. Rice. 24 MS. RICE: No and no. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. Thank you, FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 158 1 Mr. Ballinger. 2 MS. BRUBAKER: And that would put us at Exhibit 12, 3 Chairman. 4 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Exhibit 12. 5 (Exhibit 12 marked for identification.) 6 MS. BRUBAKER: The next speaker I have is Steve 7 Showen, and I would note that that is the last speaker I have 8 signed up to speak at this time. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And before we do that, Steve, 10 Steve, would you bear with us for a second, please? 11 MR. SHOWEN: Sure. 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Hold on before you go, Steve. 13 MR. SHOWEN: Yes, I will. 14 CHAIRMAN CARTER: I need like one second. Hold on 15 one second here. 16 (Pause.) 17 What I'm trying to do is that there were a couple of 18 people that when we went through that were not in the room, and 19 I know that we've got to go, but if at all possible I want to 20 get them. So those three names -- Steve, before you start, we 21 want to call their names in case they're back in the room so we 22 can hear from them. If at all possible, I want to hear from 23 everyone. So Ms. Brubaker. 24 MS. BRUBAKER: Shall I go ahead and call them? 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Yes, ma'am. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 159 1 MS. BRUBAKER: Renny Ramos. Ramos. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: And these people will be following 3 Steve as he finishes. 4 MS. BRUBAKER: Richard White. Richard White. And 5 Rebecca Wood. 6 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Okay. Steve, you're recognized. 7 Whereupon, 8 STEVE SHOWEN 9 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 10 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 11 DIRECT STATEMENT 12 MR. SHOWEN: Thank you. My name is Steve Showen, 13 S-H-O-W-E-N. I live at 2301 Northeast 6th Avenue. And I thank 14 you for this opportunity to speak before the Commission. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Steve, get a little, get a little 16 intimate with that. 17 MR. SHOWEN: Yeah. Can you hear me now? Cool. I'm 18 here representing the Green Party, the Miami-Dade Green Party 19 and the Green Party of Florida, and I'm the co-chair of the 20 Miami-Dade Green Party, one of them. And I receive no monies 21 for that position or for being here or any monies about my 22 position or relationship to FP&L or any such thing. 23 So I'm reading a statement that we prepared. The 24 Green Party of Florida and the Miami-Dade Green Party strongly 25 oppose the construction of nuclear power plants in Florida, and FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 160 1 we call upon the Public Service Commission of Florida to reject 2 the proposals for new reactors at Turkey Point and other 3 Florida sites. 4 In the context of the escalating global climate 5 crisis, it is imperative that all public funds invested in the 6 production of electric power be focused exclusively on clean, 7 renewable energy production and sustainable solutions. 8 Our commitment to the security and survival of not 9 only our own society, but the global human community, obligates 10 us to reject false solutions such as the nuclear power option, 11 and instead to work together to end dependence on the polluting 12 industries that endanger the health and well-being of all life 13 on the planet. 14 The nuclear power industry owes its very existence to 15 massive government subsidies, and the current attempt to revive 16 this industry under the guise of combating global climate 17 change is little more than a scheme by corporate profiteers to 18 enrich themselves once again at the public's expense, and the 19 expense of our future quality of life. 20 Increased nuclear energy production will not and 21 cannot solve the climate crisis. The construction of new 22 nuclear power plants would be prohibitively expensive when all 23 costs are factored in, and in any case they would not be 24 brought online to meet the CO2 reduction goals that must be met 25 to avert catastrophe. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 161 1 Among the hidden costs of nuclear power we have the 2 poisoning of indigenous people and the ecosystems in the mining 3 and extraction of uranium; the consumption of massive amounts 4 of fossil fuels in the production process, including the 5 mining, the refining and the transportation of uranium; the use 6 of massive amounts of water for the cooling of the plants; 7 placing unnecessary demands on the supply of our ever more 8 precious water supply; the long-term health risks associated 9 with ongoing radioactive emissions from nuclear plants as 10 referred to by others here in this meeting; the negative 11 environmental impacts on marine life in the plant's discharge 12 zone; the ever present potential for catastrophic failure; the 13 permanent need for security to prevent attacks on nuclear 14 facilities; the long-term handling and storage of highly 15 radioactive nuclear waste, which remains a threat to public 16 health and safety for Millenia. 17 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Excuse me, Mr. Showen. Are you 18 going to submit that as an exhibit? 19 MR. SHOWEN: Yes, I am. 20 CHAIRMAN CARTER: We would appreciate that. And so 21 that would be Exhibit -- we'll show that marked as Exhibit 22 Number 13. Commissioners? 23 MR. SHOWEN: May I finish? I only have a small 24 amount to go. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: We'll just put it into the record. FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 162 1 I really want to make sure that I give everybody an opportunity 2 to be heard, Steve. And I think you want me to be fair with 3 everybody, don't you? 4 MR. SHOWEN: I do. Are there others waiting? 5 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Let me ask this. Mr. Ballinger has 6 taken that. That will be Exhibit 13 and we'll put it into the 7 record. It'll be read into the record, sir. 8 (Exhibit 13 marked for identification.) 9 MR. SHOWEN: Thank you, sir. 10 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Let me ask this -- Mr. Ballinger. 11 You've already answered Mr. Krasowski's questions. No problem 12 with that. Go ahead. He'll get it from you. 13 Anyone in the audience, out of an abundance of 14 caution? It's extremely important to us as a Commission to 15 make sure that we heard from everyone. Is there anyone that 16 did not get an opportunity to speak that wants to be heard? 17 We've heard from everyone that signed up, and those that were 18 not here, we went over them. But out of an abundance of going 19 above and beyond the call of duty, is there anyone here that 20 wanted to speak that didn't get a chance to speak? We're more 21 than happy to hear from you at this point in time. Otherwise, 22 we'll move into statements from the Commissioners. 23 Would you like to speak, sir? 24 MR. FLINT: I'd like to say something. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Would you come on down? And have FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 163 1 you been sworn in, sir? 2 MR. FLINT: No, sir. 3 CHAIRMAN CARTER: It won't take me a second to do 4 that. And, staff, staff, would you get a statement so we can 5 sign him up? Staff. 6 (Witness sworn.) 7 Thank you, sir. Would you please state your name for 8 the record. And you have two minutes. 9 Whereupon, 10 STEVE FLINT 11 was called as a witness on behalf of the Citizens of the State 12 of Florida and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 DIRECT STATEMENT 14 MR. FLINT: My name is, my name is Steve Flint. I'm 15 a member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical 16 Workers, Local 359, Miami, Florida. I'm also employed by 17 Florida Power & Light Company. So I guess I'm being paid, not 18 now, no one asked me to be here, but I do get a salary from 19 FP&L and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. 20 I've been employed at Turkey Point for 35 years. 21 It's been a great place to work. We have over 300 members 22 working at that site, and our members wouldn't be there if it 23 was an unsafe area to work at. The safety that's put into 24 place is above and beyond any kind of reproach or anything. 25 It's a very safe plant to work at. We fish outside in front of FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 164 1 the plant. I have a ten-year-old grandson. We've spent many 2 hours out there fishing out in front of the plant; some of the 3 best fishing in the South Florida area, red fish, snook, trout, 4 whatever you want to catch. 5 It's a great place to work, and I really think that 6 it will bring a lot of new technology. There's so much 7 interest to work in a nuclear power plant with some of the 8 advanced technology with the way the systems are set up, the 9 way they run. And I just think that if no one has ever been to 10 a nuke plant, you need to take a tour of a nuke plant. Thank 11 you. 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you so kindly. 13 Members, thank you for your indulgence, and I 14 appreciate you allowing me as Chairman to go above and beyond 15 the call of duty to hear from everyone here. At this point in 16 time, members, we'll go through final comments beginning in 17 this order: With Commissioner Edgar, then Commissioner 18 McMurrian, then Commissioner Argenziano, then Commissioner 19 Skop. And if there's a minute left, I may say something. 20 Commissioner Edgar, you're recognized. 21 COMMISSIONER EDGAR: Thank you. And I'd just like to 22 thank everybody who has come out this evening. I know we've 23 gone a little over time, but I appreciate everybody who came to 24 participate. And I would ask that if there is somebody, 25 friends, neighbors, family that was not able to come this FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 165 1 evening, please share with them the opportunity to write in 2 comments and participate in our process as well. And, Chairman 3 Carter, thank you for running an excellent meeting. 4 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you. Commissioner McMurrian. 5 COMMISSIONER McMURRIAN: I echo those comments. 6 Thank you all for being here. And as the Chairman has said 7 several times, we're here to hear from you and we appreciate 8 you sticking in with us 'til the end. Thank you so much. 9 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Commissioner Argenziano. 10 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: I just want to thank 11 Miami-Dade College again. Is this -- can you hear me? 12 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Wait a sec. Can we get sound? 13 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: I can yell. I think y'all 14 can hear me now. 15 CHAIRMAN CARTER: No. No. We want it on the record. 16 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: Okay. There we go. I just 17 want to thank Miami-Dade College once again and Senator 18 Villalobos for allowing the people of Miami to have a place to 19 come and talk to the Public Service Commission. And, of 20 course, I'm very proud that everybody showed up today to speak 21 to us, and I will be doing my part as a Commissioner to look 22 into what our jurisdiction allows us to look into. And I'm 23 pleased to have all the comments that we will have taking back 24 with us. And if there's anything additional, as our 25 Commissioners have said already, please send it to us and keep FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 166 1 participating in the process. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 2 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Commissioner Skop. 3 COMMISSIONER SKOP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 4 First on a procedural note, just for the record I 5 would like to briefly respond to the question that was 6 presented by, I believe, Ms. Jennifer Rock. 7 Simply put, there is no conflict of interest either 8 past or present which would preclude me from hearing this case. 9 Also I would like to respectfully note for the record that I am 10 a member of the Florida Bar in good standing, an officer of the 11 court and appointed official sworn to uphold the duties and the 12 highest ethical standards of the position which I hold. So 13 while the question is welcome and proper, there is no showing 14 that my judgment would be biased nor compromised and that I 15 could not remain impartial in the course of this proceeding. 16 Thank you. 17 On a global note, I'd like to also thank everyone for 18 attending, again, and also thank Miami-Dade College as well as 19 the local governmental officials that have taken their time to 20 appear, as well as the consumers and the various stakeholders. 21 We welcome the input from the community. It's very important 22 in our decision-making. And, again, I would like to thank 23 everyone for staying the course and coming out and offering 24 their input. Thank you. 25 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Thank you, Commissioners, to our FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 167 1 Public Counsel, to our staff, to the court reporter. I prayed 2 for your fingers. And to our neighbors, we are a government of 3 neighbors. We are concerned about our fellow citizens and 4 that's why we're. And, Commissioners, thank you for your 5 confidence in me for allowing me to go above and beyond and for 6 us to have this opportunity to come down, even though -- thank 7 you, Commissioner Edgar, for your leadership over the years and 8 how we were able to put this together where we had this change 9 so we could accommodate more people additionally, so that we 10 could have an additional hearing over and above the hearing 11 that we would have in Tallahassee. 12 And to those that it may have seemed that I was a 13 little short with you, it's far more important to me as the 14 Chairman of this Commission to make sure that everybody is 15 heard. And if you've got something that you need to say that's 16 beyond two minutes, we have these forms available. We have 17 these forms available. Please, ma'am, please, sir, we have 18 plenty of them out there. So even if you had an opportunity to 19 speak and you forgot something, put it on there. If you say I 20 don't like Commissioner Carter's tie, you know, write that down 21 and put it in there. We won't make it part of the record, but 22 it'll be good for me to read. I'll take it home and show it to 23 my wife. 24 COMMISSIONER ARGENZIANO: I think I'll write that 25 down. (Laughter.) FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 168 1 CHAIRMAN CARTER: But, again, on behalf of my fellow 2 Commissioners, thank you for your confidence in me and thank 3 you for the opportunity that we were willing to go above and 4 beyond the call of duty and hear from our fellow citizens. And 5 if there's anything else for the good of the order -- Ms. 6 Brubaker. 7 MS. BRUBAKER: Staff has nothing further. 8 CHAIRMAN CARTER: Nothing further. With that this 9 hearing is adjourned. 10 (Service Hearing adjourned at 7:51 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION 169 1 STATE OF FLORIDA ) : CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 COUNTY OF LEON ) 3 4 I, LINDA BOLES, RPR, CRR, Official Commission Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceeding was 5 heard at the time and place herein stated. 6 IT IS FURTHER CERTIFIED that I stenographically reported the said proceedings; that the same has been 7 transcribed under my direct supervision; and that this transcript constitutes a true transcription of my notes of said 8 proceedings. 9 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative 10 or employee of any of the parties' attorneys or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in 11 the action. 12 DATED THIS ______ day of January, 2008. 13 14 ________________________________ LINDA BOLES, RPR, CRR 15 FPSC Official Commission Reporter (850) 413-6734 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FLORIDA PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

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