Part IV BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the

nebulous side, we are offered more concrete

guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality.

It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even

though it seems so at first.
Let's examine what some of the fine minds of

history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators --

have to say about religion. Note that none of them,

with the exception of St. James, is a professional

religionist.
"Religion is the worship of higher powers from a

sense of need." --Allan Menzies.

experiences of individual men in their solitude, so

far as they apprehend themselves to stand in

relation to whatever they may consider the divine."

-- William James.
"Religion is the recognition of all our duties as

divine commands."--Immanual Kant.

which man feels himself in relation with powers

of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and

makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba.

Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows

in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted

from the world."--The General Epistle of James,

1:27.
One cannot but be impressed with the similarity

of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps.

condensed version of the first three steps wherein

we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power

greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our

wills and lives over to that Power.
William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we

should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM.

over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven,

wherein we are admonished to give our lives a

thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and

restitutions are without question divine commands.
James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step,

where we make use of our newly found powers.

to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less

and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a

matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we

were very definitely fatherless and widows.
The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly.

There is not an ethical religion in the world today

that does not teach to a great extent the principles

of Love, Charity and Good Will.

will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the

great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social

justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one

of our finest examples of helping one another. When

a member of the family gets into trouble of any

kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally

around with advice, admonition, and even financial

assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason

there are not more Jewish members of AA. The

family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic

problem.
Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the

poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler,

and conduct themselves with personal dignity.

Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right

action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness

and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy,

as exemplified by these eight points, could be

literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or

addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal

love and welfare of others rather than

considerations of self are basic to Buddhism.
The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit.

Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility

and serenity.
St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order."

We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered.

From: RDUBYA . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 8:06:00 PM

Alcoholics

Anonymous.
Roger W.
Penny wrote:

Where did the phrase share our experience, strength

and hope come from?
In love and sobriety

Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00

Roanoke Virginia
Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is

greater than the fear of letting go!

Never assume some one knows you love them,

take the time to tell them.

Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction

recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous
---------------------------------

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AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Roger M Weed

"be strong in the Lord, and in the Power of His might". Eph 6:10
---------------------------------

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Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
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++++Message 3169. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not

Florence

wrote was based upon or the fact that it wasn't just

Clarence's bio but an historical account of early

Cleveland AA.

interviews with Clarence. Dozens of oral histories of

early AA members in AA archival repositories -

including AAGSO - were used. Several thousands of

pages of original documents from Cleveland and other

archival repositories including AAGSO, Stepping Stones

etc were used. A couple hundred hours of live,

in-person and phone interviews of long-term members

and friends of AA were used. Over 11 years of

extensive research, writing and review went into the

book.
Your constant efforts to malign and discredit the book

continues to illuminate your own agenda here. The

name, Jane S. does not appear in any of the early

Cleveland archival materials or dozens of meeting

rosters or histories of all the original groups

compiled by Norm E., the recording statistician from

the Cleveland Central Committee in the early 1940's.
Cheers
> I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should

> be a factor as

> opposed to just when someone might have first showed

> up. Bill and Bob

> had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and

> Eddie R) prior to

> Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the

> legendary "Lil."

>

> Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R

> vote goes to Florence.

>

> Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated

> acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is

> not recalled in

> Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on

> interviews with

> Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits

> other than being

> mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along

> with "Lil."

>

> Cheers

>

> __________________________________

> Message 3142 from:

> Tom Hickcox

> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers]

> First woman was Jane S., not Florence

>

> Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then

> it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who

> was the first woman working the program of what

> became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's

> sobriety?"

>

>

Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years

From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 12:22:00 AM
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The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central

Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting:

"Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the

meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in

October. The group calls itself the Young People's

Group and it was formed by several of the younger

A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that

they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings."

Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge.

> started February 1946 by

> Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being

> under 30 years of age they

> thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with

> the younger alcoholic. They

> started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA

> under 35 years of age. The

> group had several female members. They felt they

> could deal with members who

> were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as

> older members. They had

> parties, picnic's and other social events as well

> as the AA meetings.

> Several years ago,at a workshop that had several

> original group members,

> I remember Pat C saying that she and several

> other members of the group

> got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st

> Young Peoples convention.Most

> of those that attended the workshop had a love of

> life and of each other and

> were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety.

> The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday,

> February 14th at 7 P.M. at

> 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.

> Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups

> before that date. I think

> there may have been another group in the Los Angeles

> area.

> Shakey Mike G.

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

>

>

>
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From: Veda . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 9:16:00 PM

right thing" comes

from the story of Dr. Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now

named

it" comes

from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says "It works it

really does".

Date: 02/13/06 00:11:05

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "burning desire"

conventions in AA these days have seeped in from

NA and/or treatment centers.
Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have

a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting?

thing" come from?

the Lord's prayer.

________________________________
From the moderator:
Raymond I., who shows up in my book about

old time AA in northern Indiana

(see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html)

frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with

a burning desire." He says he didn't make up

this phrase, but that it was something that other

people also said back in the old days.
"Old time" is relative.
Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was

trained by the old-time black AA members who came

into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk

treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that

everybody chants at the end of their meetings.
So I think that in the form "you must want it with

a burning desire," the words go back to a period

before all the psychobabble and high school

cheerleading type stuff.

by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to

the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior

to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from

that source.
But can anybody trace "you must want it with a

burning desire" back before the 1970's?

terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very

different from 1938, 1939 is very different from

1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or

1949. The 1960's were very different from the

1950's. AA was going through continuous change

and development during that whole period. But

it was working effectively and continuing to

grow and expand at an enormous rate.
Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
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From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 8:01:00 AM

works if you work

it and it dont't if you don't. I do not know if he is the originator of this

statement. As i

have been told many times nothing in Alcoholics Anonymous is Original !
Jerry O.
Southern MN. Area 36 Archivist
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++++Message 3173. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev.

Shoemaker

From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 8:12:00 AM
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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, sbanker914@

... wrote:

tape was slipped into a purchase of books I

had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long

gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk

by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of

Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think.

I don't remember specifics of the tape very

well, but I'll never forget Gertrude ....

I wonder if anyone else ever heard that

tape or remembers Gertrude.

NYC

serves me right I believe she was living in

Iowa a number of years ago and I don't know

if she is still living. I have three tapes

by Gert B.

Jerry
Southern MN. Area 35 Archivist

From: Russ Hillard . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 12:01:00 PM

interest

of

Alcoholics Anonymous, (Bill Wilson). We met in New York in 1960. Humphry

and I introduced him to the concept of mega vitamin therapy. We described

the

results we had seen with our schizophrenic patients, some of whom were also

therapeutic

for arthritis, for some cases of senility and it lowered cholesterol levels.

Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3 g daily. Within a

few weeks fatigue and depression which had plagued him for years were gone.

He

gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA and persuaded them to try it.

months he was convinced that it would be very helpful to alcoholics. Of the

thirty, 10 were free of anxiety, tension and depression in one month.

Another 10

were well in two months. He decided that the chemical or medical terms for

this

especially

the doctors in AA, that this would be a useful addition to treatment and he

needed a term that could be more readily popularized. He asked me the names

that

had been used. I told him it was originally known as vitamin B-3. This was

term Bill wanted. In his first report to physicians in AA he called it

"The

Vitamin B-3 Therapy." Thousands of copies of this extraordinary

distributed. Eventually the name came back and today

even the most conservative medical journals are using the term vitamin B-3.

Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. The

medical members who had been appointed by Bill, felt that he had no business

messing about with treatment using vitamins. They also "knew"

vitamin B-3 could

not be therapeutic as Bill had found it to be. For this reason Bill provided

information to the medical members of AA outside of the National Board,

distributing three of his amazing pamphlets. They are now not readily

available."
Regards,
Russ HIllard
JOHN e REID wrote:

I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical

Profession

on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to

where

this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and

provide

my life and

walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,

having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I

was less than 3

months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia,

the

1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley

Traditions

Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting

against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not

necessarily AA

jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put

out.
Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a

shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and

mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would

benefit

local Meetings

list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA

material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested

to

me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the

included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill

Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first

outing, he also

suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so

as I

(I

will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need

hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps

mental)

hopelessness of the disease.

Three Fold

Disease!!!!

Kind Regards, John R

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Brings words and photos together (easily) with

PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3175. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B

From: Russ Hillard . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 11:54:00 AM

just started, but I have found that Dr Abram Hoffer knew Bill W and he is

apparently the original source of Bill's interest in niacin (one of the

B-complex vitamins) for the treatment of alcoholism.

factors (including, but not limited to, B-complex vitamins) in the treatment

of

alcoholism. For a quick introduction you might look at

wrote:

I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical

Profession

on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to

where

this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and

interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please

provide

me with an electronic copy.
Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all

my life and

walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,

having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I

was less than 3

months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia,

the

1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley

Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st

Traditions

Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting

against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not

necessarily AA

jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put

out.
Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a

shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and

mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would

benefit

from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their

local Meetings

list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA

material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested

to

me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the

"way" which

included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill

Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first

outing, he also

suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so

as I

would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained

(I

will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need

Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual

hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps

mental)

hopelessness of the disease.

Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a

Three Fold

Disease!!!!

Kind Regards, John R

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3176. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Experience, strength, and hope

From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 5:52:00 PM

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Hi Penny
"Experience, strength and hope" first appeared in the June 1947

Grapevine. That issue carried the introduction of what we today call

the "AA Preamble." It was written by Tom Y, Grapevine's first

editor

and was based on the foreword to the 1st edition Big Book.
The full text of the preamble and after-notes, as it read then in the

June 1947 Grapevine was:

Alcoholics Anonymous
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share, their

experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve

their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop

drinking. A.A. has no dues or fees. It is not allied with any sect,

denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to

engage in any controversy, and neither endorses nor opposes any

causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other

alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

The A.A. Program of Recovery is incorporated in The 12 Steps. The A.A.

book of experience, Alcoholics Anonymous, and other literature,

including The 12 Points of Tradition, are available through any group

or the Central Office, P.O. Box 459, Grand Central Annex, New York 17,

N. Y.
The term "experience, strength and hope" was also incorporated

into

the Foreword to the 3rd edition Big Book. Not that long ago it became

the title for the anthology containing the personal stories deleted

from prior editions of the Big Book.
Cheers

Arthur
-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Penny

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:15 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Experience, strength, and hope
Where did the phrase share our experience, strength

and hope come from?

In love and sobriety

Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00

Roanoke Virginia
Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is

greater than the fear of letting go!

Never assume some one knows you love them,

take the time to tell them.

Yahoo! Groups Links
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++++Message 3177. . . . . . . . . . . . Self-Support

From: sunnykhill12 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 2:54:00 PM

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Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some other publication

that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the meeting basket? If

so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area and District

struggle financially because groups only have enough money to cover

their own expenses with the $1 mentality.

Any information would help - I have been asked to do a self-support

workshop.

Thanks,

Sunny H.

Little Rock, AR

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++++Message 3178. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev.

Shoemaker

From: David G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2006 5:35:00 PM
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Dear Ms. Baker,
Check out the link below to the biography of Gertrude Behanna.
Text and Real Audio tapes are available.
http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm#biog
Dave

Illinois

USA
Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev.

Shoemaker

Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:16:44 EST
Dear Art,
I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list

very much.

Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a

purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone).

It turned

out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group

of

Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of

the tape

very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged

when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr.

Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I

remember her

telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had

filled up with needy women in early recovery.
I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another

recovering woman.

I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude.
Susan B.

NYC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 3179. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Vacation Facility, Retirement

Community Living

From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2006 12:51:00 AM
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In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake

on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for

alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic

beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall.

My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities?

Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small

developments) established over the years?
I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the

possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families

and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have

not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we

are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning

guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement

living.
Pete Kopcsak

Nashville, TN

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++++Message 3180. . . . . . . . . . . . "More will be revealed"

From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2006 12:51:00 PM

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Does anyone know where the phrase "More will be revealed" came

from? Someone

asked me the other day and I can't find it in the literature. Of course that

might mean I haven't read something I need to have read anyway yet.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3181. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob`s Nightmare

From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2006 10:38:00 AM

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Attending an archives workshop we came across an interesting question,

on page 175 there is mention of Dr. Bob`s father sending a doctor from

their hometown to bring him back there. Which consequently kept Dr.

Bob in bed for the NEXT 2 months before he could eventually venture

out of the house.Suffering from the effects of his alcoholoic behavior

certainly required some medical attention during this convelescence.We

could not determine the DOCTORS name who brought Dr. Bob back to St.

Johnsbury for this rehabilation attempt.Does anyone know of the NAME

of this DOCTOR from St. Johnsbury,Vt.

Inquisitively Grateful,

Fred
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++++Message 3182. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and

Rev. Shoemaker

From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 1:36:00 AM
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Or it could be this Gertrude?
http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm
Great story of her!
Bruce A. Johanson
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++++Message 3183. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA Vacation Facility, Retirement

Community Living

From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 2:04:00 AM
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Hi Pete,

there is no longer a camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island which is located in

Georgian Bay, Ontario, This is a web site that can give you some information

re. this Island http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/on/georg/natcul/natcul3_e.asp

enjoy

Joe N.
_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greatcir@comcast.net

Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:51 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living
In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake

on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for

alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic

beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall.

My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities?

Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small

developments) established over the years?
I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the

possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families

and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have

not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we

are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning

guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement

living.
Pete Kopcsak

Nashville, TN

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++++Message 3184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire"

From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 4:13:00 AM

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Is this just opinion?
I have read Dr Paul's story again just now and see

nothing in there that I feel resembles that quote

and "It works it really does," seems a far cry from

the mindless chant heard at a lot of meetings.

At some of my groups, after the end of the Lord's

prayer, we say......STAY.

Chuck Parkhurst

______________________________

Responding to Message 3171 from "Veda"

(mcveda at yahoo.com)
I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do

the next right thing" comes from the story of Dr.

Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now

named "Acceptance Is The Answer".

And the saying "It works if you work it" comes

from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says

"It works it really does."

______________________________

Which was a response to Message 3158 from

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