Aa history Lovers 2004 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page



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(the Daytona Beach groups sponsored Twenty-Four Hours a Day and the Nicollet

Group in Minneapolis sponsored The Little Red Book) was automatically

considered O.K. for any other A.A. groups to read from and use in their

meetings, if they chose to do so. The question of exactly why New York refused

to take over the responsibility for keeping the former book in print in 1953-4

is not in fact an important issue. People today who want us to stop reading

these books are trying to cut A.A. off from its historical roots in a way

which will ultimately be very dangerous to the program -- like trying to go to

sea on a sailing ship without enough ballast in the bottom -- the first high

wind will capsize the vessel for it has no weight of tradition to keep it

upright in the face of the stormy

blasts.

That is what is important about the Archival Movement which sprang up in the



1990's -- a grassroots realization among A.A. people all over the world --

which saw that it was necessary to keep the traditions of good old-time A.A.

alive if we were to be a vital force in the present. The AAHistoryLovers, the

National Archives Workshops (the ninth one is going to be held in

Murfreesboro, Tennessee, next month), the annual conference in Bristol,

England, and so on, were the product of this new awareness which began

developing all over the world, an awareness that we have to keep A.A. firmly

grounded in its foundational period, the era of the Good Old-Timers, in order

to keep it healthy in our own period.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2000. . . . . . . . . . . . 20 Questions

From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2004 9:02:00 AM

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Here is an email posted some time ago by an archivist in Northern CA.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Juliet from our local Intergroup has come up with some interesting facts about



the 20 questions.

Below is a snippet from an e-mail I received from a contact from Johns

Hopkins' media relations department:

This is from a faculty member in our Psychiatry dept.

"The Johns Hopkins Twenty Questions: Are You An Alcoholic? was developed in

the 1930s by Dr. Robert Seliger, who at that time was a faculty member in the

Department of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. It was intended for

use as a self-assessment questionnaire to determine the extent of one's

alcohol use. It was not intended to be used by professionals as a screening

tool to help them formulate a diagnosis of alcoholism in their patients. We do

not use this questionnaire at any of the Johns Hopkins substance abuse

treatment programs. To the best of my knowledge, there have never been any

reliable or validated studies conducted using the Hopkins Twenty Questions. I

advise you to consider using other instruments such as the Michigan Alcoholism

Screening Test or the CAGE -- both of which have proven reliability and

validity as reported in the scientific literature."

So, the questions should be attributed to Dr.Robert Seliger of Johns Hopkins

(in the 1930s), not to Johns Hopkins itself as they no longer advocate their

use. I note as well that the e-mail I sent to you all earlier from the

Literature Desk at GSO stated that the hospital had requested that GSO not

attribute those questions to their institution in the pamphlet "Memo to an

Inmate Who May Be an Alcoholic."

If you know anyone who would like permission to reprint this piece, I have a

contact at Johns Hopkins to whom I can refer them. I have been in contact with

the faculty member who knew the history of this document and who recommended

that we not use it. She was very adamant about it--in a second e-mail to me,

she said that she'd grant permission to any AA group who wanted to use it, but

that she really recommended that we don't.

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++++Message 2001. . . . . . . . . . . . Rule 62

From: Jack Frost . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2004 7:10:00 AM

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Anyone know in what literature are there references to Rule 62, and

when it was originally used? Thanx!

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++++Message 2002. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dates on the 20 questions

From: Dean @ e-AA . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2004 10:18:00 AM

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butterfly2479 wrote: "The 20 questions are often

sited and used ... Can anyone verify the ORIGINAL date on the JOHN HOPKINS

TEST FOR ALCOHOLISM. And what are your sources please?

Somewhere, and I can't put my finger on it now, there was a post about this.

It could have been on another list. However, the substance was that there

was correspondence between GSO and Johns Hopkins University about this

questionnaire. The university replied that a faculty member had developed

the questionnaire but it was not approved or used by the university -- and

the university doesn't/didn't use it. (Additionally, they suggested using

something other than the questionnaire.)

I'll try to find that email. I know I still have it ... somewhere.

-- Dean Collins

Monterey Peninsula, California

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++++Message 2003. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Rule 62

From: Russ S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2004 9:31:00 AM

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"When A.A. was still young, lots of eager groups were forming. In a town we'll

call Middleton, a real crackerjack had started up. The townspeople were as hot

as firecrackers about it. Stargazing, the elders dreamed of innovations. They

figured the town needed a great big alcoholic center, a kind of pilot plant

A.A. groups could duplicate everywhere. Beginning on the ground floor there

would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and hand them

currency for their back debts; the third deck would house an educational

project - quite noncontroversial, of course. In imagination the gleaming

center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a start. This

would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it or not,

wealthy townsfolk bought the idea.

There were, though, a few conservative dissenters among the alcoholics. They

wrote the Foundation * , A.A.'s headquarters in New York, wanting to know

about this sort of streamlining. They understood that the elders, just to nail

things down good, were about to apply to the Foundation for a charter. These

few were disturbed and skeptical.

Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his

eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it

could issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with

medication and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things

safer, the promoter organized three corporations and became president of them

all. Freshly painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread

through the town. Soon things began to hum. To insure foolproof, continuous

operation, sixty-one rules and regulations were adopted.

But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. Confusion replaced

serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if

they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe

with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care

of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three

floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming

club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized,

then graduated to education on the third floor.

It was a beehive of activity, all right, but unlike a beehive, it was

confusion compounded. An A.A. group, as such, simply couldn't handle this sort

of project. All too late that was discovered. Then came the inevitable

explosion - something like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard

Factory. A chill chokedamp of fear and frustration fell over the group.

When that lifted, a wonderful thing had happened. The head promoter wrote the

Foundation office. He said he wished he'd paid some attention to A.A.

experience. Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It

all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton

Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence

leaped to the eye: "Don't take yourself too damn seriously."

Thus it was that under Tradition Four an A.A. group had exercised its right to

be wrong. Moreover, it had performed a great service for Alcoholics Anonymous,

because it had been humbly willing to apply the lessons it learned. It had

picked itself up with a laugh and gone on to better things. Even the chief

architect, standing in the ruins of his dream, could laugh at himself - and

that is the very acme of humility."

* In 1954, the name of the Alcoholic Foundation, Inc., was

changed to the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous,

Inc., and the Foundation office is now the General Service Office.

pgs 147-149 Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jack Frost [mailto:jfrostburien@yahoo.com]

Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 8:11 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Rule 62

Anyone know in what literature are there references to Rule 62, and

when it was originally used? Thanx!

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++++Message 2004. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 20 Questions

From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2004 8:11:00 PM

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Since the 20 questions were used for years and atrributed to Johns Hopkins,

it's rather embarrassing to learnh that they didn't really have backing from

the Johns Hopkins Hospital.

But we no longer need them. AA has 12 questions in the pamphlet "Is AA for

You?" which should suffice very well. Just walk a newcomer through those 12

questions and it should be immediately clear whether there's a serious

drinking problem there.

Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~


Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim Blair

To: AA History Lovers

Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:02 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 20 Questions

Here is an email posted some time ago by an archivist in Northern CA.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----


Juliet from our local Intergroup has come up with some interesting facts

about the 20 questions.

Below is a snippet from an e-mail I received from a contact from Johns

Hopkins' media relations department:

This is from a faculty member in our Psychiatry dept.

"The Johns Hopkins Twenty Questions: Are You An Alcoholic? was developed in

the 1930s by Dr. Robert Seliger, who at that time was a faculty member in

the Department of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. It was intended

for use as a self-assessment questionnaire to determine the extent of one's

alcohol use. It was not intended to be used by professionals as a screening

tool to help them formulate a diagnosis of alcoholism in their patients. We

do not use this questionnaire at any of the Johns Hopkins substance abuse

treatment programs. To the best of my knowledge, there have never been any

reliable or validated studies conducted using the Hopkins Twenty Questions.

I advise you to consider using other instruments such as the Michigan

Alcoholism Screening Test or the CAGE -- both of which have proven

reliability and validity as reported in the scientific literature."

So, the questions should be attributed to Dr.Robert Seliger of Johns Hopkins

(in the 1930s), not to Johns Hopkins itself as they no longer advocate their

use. I note as well that the e-mail I sent to you all earlier from the

Literature Desk at GSO stated that the hospital had requested that GSO not

attribute those questions to their institution in the pamphlet "Memo to an

Inmate Who May Be an Alcoholic."

If you know anyone who would like permission to reprint this piece, I have a

contact at Johns Hopkins to whom I can refer them. I have been in contact

with the faculty member who knew the history of this document and who

recommended that we not use it. She was very adamant about it--in a second

e-mail to me, she said that she'd grant permission to any AA group who

wanted to use it, but that she really recommended that we don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message was scanned by GatewayDefender [4]

9:55:16 AM ET - 8/28/2004

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++++Message 2005. . . . . . . . . . . . 1940 AA/mexicanMemberCleveland

From: Gilbert Gamboa . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2004 9:04:00 PM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

This question is for anyone who can direct me in the direction of info on Dick

P the


mexican AA member who joined in 1940 in Cleveland I believe..Mel B you might

recall all this,but I believe him to be the key figure in the translation of

the Big Book into spanish words???..all info on this would be greatly

appreciated,and although the hard work has been done in translating this book

to spanish,there is yet a harder piece Ive encountered and that is to

pronounce the words correctly and put an exact definition to the meaning in

spanish....

seek,Trust,and serve

Gilbert G.-Dallas,TX.

Mel Barger wrote:

Since the 20 questions were used for years and atrributed to Johns Hopkins,

it's rather embarrassing to learnh that they didn't really have backing from

the Johns Hopkins Hospital.

But we no longer need them. AA has 12 questions in the pamphlet "Is AA for

You?" which should suffice very well. Just walk a newcomer through those 12

questions and it should be immediately clear whether there's a serious

drinking problem there.

Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim Blair

To: AA History Lovers

Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:02 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 20 Questions

Here is an email posted some time ago by an archivist in Northern CA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Juliet from our local Intergroup has come up with some interesting facts



about the 20 questions.

Below is a snippet from an e-mail I received from a contact from Johns

Hopkins' media relations department:

This is from a faculty member in our Psychiatry dept.

"The Johns Hopkins Twenty Questions: Are You An Alcoholic? was developed

in the 1930s by Dr. Robert Seliger, who at that time was a faculty member

in the Department of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. It was

intended for use as a self-assessment questionnaire to determine the

extent of one's alcohol use. It was not intended to be used by

professionals as a screening tool to help them formulate a diagnosis of

alcoholism in their patients. We do not use this questionnaire at any of

the Johns Hopkins substance abuse treatment programs. To the best of my

knowledge, there have never been any reliable or validated studies

conducted using the Hopkins

Twenty Questions. I advise you to consider using other instruments such as

the Michigan Alcoholism Screening Test or the CAGE -- both of which have

proven reliability and validity as reported in the scientific literature."

So, the questions should be attributed to Dr.Robert Seliger of Johns

Hopkins (in the 1930s), not to Johns Hopkins itself as they no longer

advocate their use. I note as well that the e-mail I sent to you all

earlier from the Literature Desk at GSO stated that the hospital had

requested that GSO not attribute those questions to their institution in

the pamphlet "Memo to an Inmate Who May Be an Alcoholic."

If you know anyone who would like permission to reprint this piece, I have

a contact at Johns Hopkins to whom I can refer them. I have been in

contact with the faculty member who knew the history of this document and

who recommended that we not use it. She was very adamant about it--in a

second e-mail to me, she said that she'd

grant permission to any AA group who wanted to use it, but that she really

recommended that we don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message was scanned by GatewayDefender [108]

9:55:16 AM ET - 8/28/2004

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now [106] .

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++++Message 2006. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1940 AA/mexicanMemberCleveland

From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2004 1:16:00 PM

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Hi Gilbert,

I called the Cleveland Central Office re your request. The gentleman was Dick

Perez and he and his wife both translated materials into Spanish. Dick passed

away in 1988, about seven years after retiring from the Central Office. His

wife is also deceased. My source for this information is Elvira A., who has

worked at the central office in Cleveland for 28 years. She is getting

together information about Dick. You may call her at (216) 241-7387.

I do recall talking by phone with Dick in 1980, a short time before he

retired. I was trying to interview Cleveland oldtimers for "Pass It On," and

he gave me some leads.

Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~


Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Gilbert Gamboa

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:04 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1940 AA/mexicanMemberCleveland

This question is for anyone who can direct me in the direction of info on

Dick P the

mexican AA member who joined in 1940 in Cleveland I believe..Mel B you might

recall all this,but I believe him to be the key figure in the translation of

the Big Book into spanish words???..all info on this would be greatly

appreciated,and although the hard work has been done in translating this

book to spanish,there is yet a harder piece Ive encountered and that is to

pronounce the words correctly and put an exact definition to the meaning in

spanish....

seek,Trust,and serve

Gilbert G.-Dallas,TX.

Mel Barger wrote:

Since the 20 questions were used for years and atrributed to Johns

Hopkins, it's rather embarrassing to learnh that they didn't really have

backing from the Johns Hopkins Hospital.

But we no longer need them. AA has 12 questions in the pamphlet "Is AA for

You?" which should suffice very well. Just walk a newcomer through those

12 questions and it should be immediately clear whether there's a serious

drinking problem there.

Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~


Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim Blair

To: AA History Lovers

Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:02 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 20 Questions

Here is an email posted some time ago by an archivist in Northern CA.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------


Juliet from our local Intergroup has come up with some interesting facts

about the 20 questions.

Below is a snippet from an e-mail I received from a contact from Johns

Hopkins' media relations department:

This is from a faculty member in our Psychiatry dept.

"The Johns Hopkins Twenty Questions: Are You An Alcoholic? was developed

in the 1930s by Dr. Robert Seliger, who at that time was a faculty

member in the Department of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. It

was intended for use as a self-assessment questionnaire to determine the

extent of one's alcohol use. It was not intended to be used by

professionals as a screening tool to help them formulate a diagnosis of

alcoholism in their patients. We do not use this questionnaire at any of

the Johns Hopkins substance abuse treatment programs. To the best of my

knowledge, there have never been any reliable or validated studies

conducted using the Hopkins Twenty Questions. I advise you to consider

using other instruments such as the Michigan Alcoholism Screening Test

or the CAGE -- both of which have proven reliability and validity as

reported in the scientific literature."

So, the questions should be attributed to Dr.Robert Seliger of Johns

Hopkins (in the 1930s), not to Johns Hopkins itself as they no longer

advocate their use. I note as well that the e-mail I sent to you all

earlier from the Literature Desk at GSO stated that the hospital had

requested that GSO not attribute those questions to their institution in

the pamphlet "Memo to an Inmate Who May Be an Alcoholic."

If you know anyone who would like permission to reprint this piece, I

have a contact at Johns Hopkins to whom I can refer them. I have been in

contact with the faculty member who knew the history of this document

and who recommended that we not use it. She was very adamant about

it--in a second e-mail to me, she said that she'd grant permission to

any AA group who wanted to use it, but that she really recommended that

we don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message was scanned by GatewayDefender [108]

9:55:16 AM ET - 8/28/2004

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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